Posts 501-1000

Message 501 of 6010 Reply

Mass combat Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 4/16/99 2:20 am
I've got about four ways that I've handled mass combat when the situation has come up. My decision as to which method to use has a lot to do with my mood at the time as well as factors in the campaign.
If the player characters are not personally involved with a battle, but will be affected by its outcome, I either decide in advance which way the battle will turn or I roll a die or two with some arbitrary modifiers to see which side is the victor or whether there's been a stalemate.
Likewise if the pc's are fighting in a battle where they are simple soldiers, or the battle is quite large in scope, I use the same method and then I treat the battle itself as something similar to a very crowded, open-air dungeon with lots of encounters and events that the pc's have to overcome.
Sometimes the PC's are either commanders of one side or another, or I feel like a change of pace from the regular style of role-playing. In this case, I let one or more of the PC's field a side in the battle and we play it out. For relatively small-scale skirmishes I used the Battlesystem rules, but I thought they became a bit unwieldy when used for large numbers. Also, I'm not a wargamer so I'm not really into miniatures and scale models and such. Occasionally I let PC's field both sides of the battle, if I think they'll play fair. If I have some doubts, then I'll either arrange a role-playing situation to explain why a PC would want the "wrong" side to win or simply give out an xp reward or like bonus to the players on the winning side which doesn't make a lot of sense from a game-point of view but serves as a great expedient.
For the really big battles that were fairly important, I would use the strategic mass-combat systems presented in the D&D rules: War Machine and Siege Machine. They use a kind of rock-paper-scissors method of determining outcomes and are really for wars; each turn is a day and each roll determines who fares victorious in an entire battle.
Naturally, I'm fond of PC's involving themselves as more than just grunts or commanders. Spying, sabotage, and securing lines of supply are all wartime activities that player characters excel in.
These days, I lean more towards the abstract and since I left my Battlesystem rules at home I don't see them coming into use in the near future.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 499 by Pictii


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Message 502 of 6010 Reply

Re: Favorite Character Jiriki13
(29/M/Chicago area) 4/16/99 8:35 am
My favorite current character is a fremlin mage named Katinflas "The Masterful". He wears only a silver gem-encrusted cod piece and is more of a prankster than most halflings. The name of the party is "The Masterful Hand". He leads the group in non-combat situations.
My favorite character of all time would probably have to be the first edition barbarian warrior I played for my very first character. He was a stubborn, straight forward melee combatant. Basically a Conan copy, but I had fun learning the game with him.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 483 by Umbratikus

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Message 503 of 6010 Reply

Favorite Character? Vesper_Lafanel
(M/City of Greyhawk) 4/16/99 10:41 am
Well, this is a little odd for me to answer because through all the 16 years I've been playing D&D I can tell you exactly how many times I've been a player and not a DM. Twice. So I don't really have a lot of experience on the other side of the chair. Both times I was a human ranger. I do run a lot of NPC's who adventure with the party on multiple occasions and my players are fond of calling them my "characters". If I went by that I'd have to say human theives are my favorite.

Ellowan, thanx for the compliment on my players. You want to know the secret?........None of my current players had played the game before I introduced them to it. They were all rookies and I "trained" them to be my "ultimate" group. Even to this day not one of them even owns a D&D book. That makes it easy for me to keep things fresh for them because they aren't out there reading everything in print. I own four Player Hanbooks plus my 1st edition one, so they all use them...the rest of the books are for my eyes only. I really enjoy this situation because to this day not even 1 of my players knows that you can kill a rakasha in one shot with a blessed crossbow bolt!

Vesper

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 504 of 6010 Reply

Greyhawk Vesper_Lafanel
(M/City of Greyhawk) 4/16/99 12:00 pm
In case there are some DM's out there who have gotten the new Greyhawk books butt don't have the old ones, I posted 2 links that can help you out. I know these newer greyhawk books don't give a whole lot in the way of info.

The Greyhawk Fanclub has a lot of good info there. It even has a Greyhawk IQ test for those of you who are big fans of Greyhawk. Also is a Greyhawk Q&A section about Greyhawk in which Gary Gygax posted answers.

The Council of Greyhawk site has the Oerth Journals. These have a lot of excellent original material about Oerth. These journals even posses some articals by James Ward, author of the Hardback Greyhawk Adventures, and Roger Moore, whose name I'm sure you recognize.

Check both sites out, they are well worth any Greyhawk fan's time.

Vesper

This Is a Reply to: Msg 503 by Vesper_Lafanel

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Message 505 of 6010 Reply

Thanks for the compliments. dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 4/16/99 5:57 pm
Even tho you didn't ask, I'll let ya know where it came from.....my husband, The Blind Sage of Elversult, is a die hard Star Trek fan. That was the name of Spocks first and only love. I won't bore you with the episode name.....

Fave character has to be Straidin........my human male fighter who is the right hand man to a paladin of Tyr. Even tho he has lost an inch in height, (lost a fight with a hill giants rock) he still tries to drink anyone under the table. He usually ends up breaking the table with his head, tho. He hasn't quite figured out how not to. Other fave characters have got to be my multitude of fighter/bi@#$es. When one of them gets ticked off, RUN!!

TTFN

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 506 of 6010 Reply

Fave pc... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 4/17/99 8:41 am
Hands down my fav pc is a halfling by the name of Tumbleweed wayward (I stole the name from who knows where) A profiteer (fgt/thief) he was an early character in a friend of mines first campaign (serious monty haul) he is incredibly obnoxious and posseses a nifty sling that adds +1/+1 to hit and damage evry ten feet it is a pocket seige engine and an everful (whiskey thanx) dringing horn I use him as an NPC some times if there is a very weak first level party that needs a little help for survivability purposes

Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 505 by dragn_lady

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Message 507 of 6010 Reply

Keep on the Borderlands....Again Vesper_Lafanel
(M/City of Greyhawk) 4/17/99 5:16 pm
Quite a few posts back I mentioned starting a new campaign with my players and was considering starting them out with the classic Keep on the Borderlands. (By the way...had to start a new campaign after their last characters decided to tackle the Tomb of Horrors). Now I'm just trying to find a good spot to place it on Oerth. I was gonna put it on the border of Iuz's territory but now I'm thinking of placing it down near the buffer zone of the Orcish Empire. Any suggestions? I'd like to keep it down there because I just got the "Lost Tombs" modules and would like to keep 'em in the area. (Anyone run these lost tombs mods yet? How are they?)

A parting note....did it bother anyone else in the Keep on the Borderlands that they always capitalized the word KEEP? (ie.."The players arrive at the KEEP,") That bugged me...I don't know why..

Vesper
Mr. Syntax

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 508 of 6010 Reply

Favorite Character benjohnna
(32/M/Norfolk, VA) 4/18/99 1:08 am
I would have to say my half elf Cleric/Thief "Archanious Rex". I was surprised at how the cleric spells can actually compliment the thieving abilities, making him rather hard to detect/stop. He's a cleptomaniac, especially when it comes to religious symbols....any type....he just likes to collect them. Haven't played him for years though...unfortunately, the last time I played him was with a DM who like the Spelljammer stuff (not crazy about it, myself), and he's "out there, somewhere" as we (I) speak.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 509 of 6010 Reply

Right up my alley!!! benjohnna
(32/M/Norfolk, VA) 4/18/99 12:46 pm
Dragonlady,
I like the way you have introduced your daughter to the game, but I have a couple of questions: First off, like you, I have a five year old daughter. Even though she doesn't have ADHD, (how do you handle it?), she has a VERY active imagination (she developed her childhood friend "Bob" at 2 1/2, and he's basically become an honorary member of the household...he's 18" tall, has red hair, wears orange clothes with green shoes and lives in the den.) My youngest daughter is three, and although she is very good at entertaining herself, her imagination is not nearly as active as her older sisters).
Have you encountered any problems with your daughter mixing reality with fantasy?
How do you handle combat, if there is any (although I'm of the mind that you can have a good gaming session without having combat).
Has your gaming sessions helped in her ADHD?...as far as concentrating on one subject for a period of time.
I've played a couple of games with my oldest daughter around (my wife plays too, by the way), and she's seemed very interested, but I'm (we) are aprehensive in introducing her to AD&D...God, what would our pastor say!?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 490 by dragn_lady

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Message 510 of 6010 Reply

Dungeon Master's Guild. . . . .Last requ Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 4/18/99 8:56 pm
A while back I asked for any information you could send my way for inclusion on our webpage. To date I have received absolutely nothing, with the exception of a background image and an offer of help for which I am grateful. You can submit ANYTHING there will be a place for it. Please, I need to see some interest in this project soon.

If you just want to help out let me know.

The url is geocities but I took it off their server (got tired of the ad banner and pics weren't loading all the time) the page will forward you.

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/9915/index.htm

Danduin Lestrontius, The Scourge of lizardmen.



P.S. I prefer text documents but if it's coded in html allready that's fine too. Basically, I am not picky, I just want to see something!

danduin_@yahoo.com

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 511 of 6010 Reply

Dungeon Master's Guild. . . . .Last requ Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 4/18/99 9:03 pm
ooops the url is :

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/9915/index.html

sorry

This Is a Reply to: Msg 510 by Danduin_

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Message 512 of 6010 Reply

Dungeon Master's Guild. . . . .Last requ nightray1998
(28/M) 4/18/99 10:12 pm
My name is nightray, We haven't spoken formally before. I don't know how much help i can actually be but you can take a look at my web page and see if there is any thing there that will help you out.You can get to it by checking out my Yahoo club Mentax the path is on the links section. C-ya

This Is a Reply to: Msg 510 by Danduin_

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Message 513 of 6010 Reply

keep Birdbone
(M/Washington) 4/19/99 12:03 am
I read somewhere that the Keep on the Borderlands is sposed to be somewhere in Geoff but I suppose it doesn't really matter. I'm bored...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 514 of 6010 Reply

Where's the Keep? Ramius1733
(34/M/Fairfax, VA) 4/19/99 9:13 am
I would place the Keep on the borderlands of the orcs. The idea behind the keep is that it is a stronghold for resupply into dangerous territory, making the borderlands perfect area to use it. This allows you to use sidetrek adventures to build a story line and get the players some experience. The presence of the keep gives the players a safe area to recover and resupply hear interesting rumors at the inn. It also gives you a way to part some of the gold they find from them either when they purchase items or when they pick up a thief that trails them out from the Keep. Good luck.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 507 by Vesper_Lafanel

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Message 515 of 6010 Reply

Dungeon Master's Guild raven6_99
4/22/99 7:02 pm
I would like to have a DM's opinion on a player's actions,
I have a player who tried to slip a potion of etheralness into another players drink, do you think the drink would dilute the potion, if the player gets away with this action, I know he will be slipping potions all the time, this maybe a good thing and it may not.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 516 of 6010 Reply

Slipping Another Player a Potion Fynduril_Skyrunner
(20/M/Pennsylvania) 4/22/99 9:32 pm
Okay, let's see here. Personally, as long as the
entire potion is added to the drink, and the player
imbibing said drink drinks it all, I don't see why it
wouldn't still work. It would basically be the same thing
as a parent mixing bad tasting medicine with fruit
juice so their child will take it. I believe the potion
would still have its entire effect.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 515 by raven6_99

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Message 517 of 6010 Reply

Etherealness Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 4/22/99 9:51 pm
hmmm what have you done about this so far? I am of the opinion that yes you can slip a potion into someone's drink but it would require quite a sleight of hand for the person not to notice. There is also the "extra" volume in the drink that was not there b4 the strange color and possibly odor. Let 'em do it but do not make it easy for him!

Picture the player trying to slip the contents of a glass of milk into your ale for an illustration of what I am talking about here.

Lastly, it *is* a potion of Etherealness, not an oil of Etherealness RIGHT?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 515 by raven6_99

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Message 518 of 6010 Reply

Slipping Potions Harlequin_1998
(24/M/Birmingham, AL) 4/23/99 7:54 am
Well, my only concern, like Danduin said, would really be with the volume and texture. A potion is generally made up of about a pint or more of fluid. To ad this much to a drink would be very noticeable. Sort of like trying to ad a can and a third of soda to another glass, which is pretty much the equivalent of another glass of soda. In addition, the flavor and texture of many potions is different from common drink, and I personally would not let the two mix (the potion would float on top of the drink). Regardless, the victim would have to have an intelligence of about 3 for the ploy to work.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 515 by raven6_99

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Message 519 of 6010 Reply

Dungeon Master's Guild Ramius1733
(34/M/Fairfax, VA) 4/23/99 9:22 am
Have the player actually demonstrate it. What is the person drinking? If ale or wine anything would be very noticable. Use ginger ale to stand in for beer, ale, white wine and use red koolaid or something similar for red wine. What is the glass the target is drinking from made of? Is it a leather jack or wooden or crock mug....can the target see thru it? If the player can pour a glass of milk into it without it being noticable he pulled it off. The only way I could see this succeding is if the target is highly intoxicated and then I would give them a saving throw for noticing something different before drinking and another one for the first sip.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 515 by raven6_99

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Message 520 of 6010 Reply

Potions and such Umbratikus
(33/M/Central Ohio) 4/23/99 11:18 am
As we have seen, there are a lot of variables to consider:
1) The volume of potion. In my campaign, this is variable, depending on the potion. Some are just a few ounces, others are closer to a pint. (You could determine this randomly by rolling 2d8 or 1d12 to see the number of ounces if you wanted to).
2) The composition (color, texture, etc) of the potion, and how far removed it is from what the "victim" is drinking.
3) What the "victim" is drinking.
4) If the "victim" drinks all of the concoction.
5) The current mental state (READ level of intoxication) of the "victim".
6) What the "victim" is drinking out of
7) The lighting. (Sitting in a dark pub by a fireplace is a lot different than sitting under bright lamplight).

After figuring all of these into the equasion, you will still need to determine:
1) the perp's chance of "slipping the mickey" unnoticed. Is he/she a thief? You can use a pick pockets roll or a dexterity check, perhaps.
2) the "victim's" chance of noticing (either by taste, texture, or color). Perhaps a modified Wisdom check?

If you take all of this into account, and he can still pull it off, it could lend itself to some pretty humorous situations. The potion, because it is being drank slowly, might behave differently or take effect gradually. I can see the "victim" talking to his neighbor at the bar and slowly fading away. His intoxicated mind cannot quite comprehend what is happening. Suddenly he cannot pick up his mug because his hand passes through the handle. This could be hilarious if played right.

PS: gingerale and Kool-Aid? Hell, use beer and wine (assuming you are over 21, of course : )

This Is a Reply to: Msg 515 by raven6_99

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Message 521 of 6010 Reply

Potions and such Ramius1733
(34/M/Fairfax, VA) 4/23/99 1:49 pm
Use beer or wine!!! If you mix milk with that it is alcohol abuse and there is no way I can condone that. I like the idea of the person fading away as they drank the potion. Think of the different problems that would arise from potions used like this. Giant strength could be interesting :)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 520 by Umbratikus

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Message 522 of 6010 Reply

Potions and such Umbratikus
(33/M/Central Ohio) 4/23/99 2:52 pm
Potions of growth, diminution, philter of love... the list goes on and on : D

This Is a Reply to: Msg 521 by Ramius1733

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Message 523 of 6010 Reply

Info on Giants as PC's Alternate2k2
(19/M/Castlebar ,Ireland) 4/26/99 1:47 pm
Hey guys sorry to interupt your debate on potions but i've got a small problem.
a new P.C. arrived the other day and he said he'd like to play a giant, Where can i get the info, Do i have to create a whole new charactr class or just use one from the Monsters guide.
Thanxs .
Alternate....

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 524 of 6010 Reply

RE: Info on Giants as PC's Jiriki13
(29/M/Chicago area) 4/26/99 2:57 pm
You could just allow the giants that were presented in the Humanoid's Handbook. The two that were presented there were the Voadkyn and Firbolg. The rules for which character classes, level limits, ability adjustments, etc. are all in that book.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 523 by Alternate2k2

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Message 525 of 6010 Reply

giants Birdbone
(M/Washington) 4/27/99 9:49 am
If you don't have the humanoid book, just wing it. You mean 'race' not class right? Well anyway it's not that hard, you could just take a dwarf (or whatever) and mix up its numbers a little.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 523 by Alternate2k2

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Message 526 of 6010 Reply

RE:Giants Vesper_Lafanel
(M/City of Greyhawk) 4/27/99 9:28 pm
I would suggest that before you allow a player to play a giant that you make sure it won't disrupt the campaign. If the giant is joining an existing campaign of standard PC races a lot of problems can come up.

First, dungeon crawl adventures become virtually impossible. Giant sized equipment isn't going to be readily available and when it can be found is would most likely be out of a low level PC's price range. Same with rations, the standard 1 week of dry rations just isn't going to cut it with a character who has (pardon the pun) a giant appetite. This also holds true with water. Adding a giant to a standard party can cause a lot of conflict and player resentment, (not to mention game balance). Be prepared for a lot of setbacks and groundwork to prepare adventures that fit the needs of such a mismatched party.

On the other hand, a party consisting entirely of giants or giant-kin could be a very interesting campaign.

But beware of allowing this player to hop in to a standard campaign with a giant, some of your players may resent the unfair advantage you are giving to him.

Also, never be afraid to set your foot down. If a player want's to bring in a character that will unbalance or upset the game, or one that causes you to go way out of the way to accomidate him. Just say no. As DM's we put a lot of time and effort into making an enjoyable campaign to have it all whacked out of place by a single player. A player may whine when things don't go their way but they will get over it.

Vesper

This Is a Reply to: Msg 523 by Alternate2k2

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Message 527 of 6010 Reply

RE:Giants Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 4/27/99 9:37 pm
YOU HAVE THREE HANDS!!!!!! Way cool.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 526 by Vesper_Lafanel

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Message 528 of 6010 Reply

Dungeon Master's Guild Page is gone. Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 4/27/99 11:27 pm
I am removing the files, links etc. associated with the webpage that I started for this group.

It seems that no one really wanted to help out, or submit anything so on and so forth so I am going to use the space for something more career orientated.

Danduin Lestrontius, "Accidental" Stomper of halflings. . . . . ad infinitum

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 529 of 6010 Reply

Thanx for the info. Alternate2k2
(19/M/Castlebar ,Ireland) 4/28/99 5:24 am
I think i'll leave the giant out of the campaign for a while yet, hey maybe he might consider taking a yeti, with a not so thick winter coat of course.Power to DMing. Alternate...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 526 by Vesper_Lafanel

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Message 530 of 6010 Reply

GIANTS and other stuff Pictii
(33/M/PA) 4/28/99 9:13 am
I had a player get turned into an ogre that was nifty I made him play the ogre the way they are mean spirited and hungry he was extremely stupid and indescribably ugly and smelled rather repulsive only one pc could deal with him every one else would try to "ditch" him it was neat I would never allow a PC to start out as a giant Unless the whole party was giants or their ilk

Danduin sorry about the lack of support it seems that spring has timed itself more than inconveniantly this year and I have not had time to do a third of what I would like I am sorry I feel I have let you down alas the tribulations of chaos society

Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 529 by Alternate2k2

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Message 531 of 6010 Reply

No worries Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 4/28/99 4:14 pm
I am not upset or anyhting like that it's just that I have something else that can use that space.

I sometimes forget that not everyone is tied to a computer for at least forty hours a week. The files are still stored locally here at work (I have a hard time discarding anything I have made).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 530 by Pictii

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Message 532 of 6010 Reply

Pardon my deformity? Vesper_Lafanel
(M/City of Greyhawk) 4/30/99 12:26 am
I'm still trying to figure out where the thought of a third hand came from??? I only remember typing "on the other hand" once then moving on...I do remember mentioning a foot though....hmmmmm...

Mayhaps I goofed and sprouted myself an extra appendage for that post but I dont recall it...then again I haad spent 12 hours on the firing-range that day and was thinking more about downing a few beers than what I was posting..maybe I'll go read it again.

Vesper the Mutant?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 527 by Danduin_

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Message 533 of 6010 Reply

Pardon my deformity? Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 4/30/99 1:23 am
It seems that I must have been halucinating (dang I didn't even get to REALLY enjoy it either) hmmm indeed perhaps that was one of them thar flashbacks I was warned about so very long ago . . . .

This Is a Reply to: Msg 532 by Vesper_Lafanel

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Message 534 of 6010 Reply

DM and gamers surpluse didnot
(19/M/Minnesota) 5/1/99 3:00 am
I have started a new club eeeek!! yes I am advertizing sorry but with only little old me (ok honestly I am not so little)it is hard to get noticed on club list being so far down in the ranks. You could join the club and say "jeez this sucks nothing here" but you know I would rather see you say "hay I am going to stay here and help this poor guy out, this club has potential". A note to you the owner of this fine club I am not compition for you thats not my intentions. Mine are to try to help make gameing better for us all with a good effort we all can make that happen I plan to stay a member of your club cause I like it and find it intresting thank you all for your time .

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 535 of 6010 Reply

Critical Thinking in Combat and Other Ra Jestyr_B
(29/F/Northern California) 5/3/99 11:57 pm
I am looking for a percentile based critical hit/fumble table for AD&D. Has anyone out there genned one? The Combat and Tactics critical hits table is a flowchart, and I have neither the patience nor the laptop (I have CR2, and it does it for you) for it.

OR

How do you deal with crit hits and fumbles? QuickRules desired most...

Jestyr, beta to the Max

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 536 of 6010 Reply

Critical Thinking in Combat and Other Ra Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/4/99 12:14 pm
I use a wildly capracious crti/fumble method most of the results are based on the severity of the Die roll I have them roll D20 if it be a 1 there is a critical failure they roll again if it is any number but 1 or 20 then the failure is mediocre "you swing and throw your sword accross the room" if it is another crit (1 or 20 they roll agin again results dictating action I rarely hurt pc's with critical failures unless they roll several 1's in a row as for critical hits I do the same but at the opposite end of the scale a natural 20 results in a critical hit then I figure double or triple damage based on a D20 roll below 10 double over triple another 20 results in another roll at this point it is almost a guaranteed kill it works really no one has ever said ohhh thats not fair and I have never had to develope the system further
>>If you are seeking really complete crit failure and hit charts I would suggest ICE Iron crown enterprises I don't know what their gaming system is I have a middle earth role playing game with pages and pages of extensive charts for both critical hits and catastrophic failures
Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 535 by Jestyr_B

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Message 537 of 6010 Reply

Critical Thinking in Combat and Other Ra Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 5/4/99 8:33 pm
If you have some old dragon magazines there is an article in one of em for ya! (Sorry I have no idea which one but it was long before Dragon changed its format. . . . .probably in the '80s sometime

I have gone away from crits and all that bogs me game down. I do allow extra damage on a 20 (an extra die usually) and a roll of a 1 causes some humorous fumble (made up on the fly without consulting a cumbersome table)


Let me ask you this. . . . . .


Do you let your PC's foe have critical hits as well? If not, shame on you!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 535 by Jestyr_B

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Message 538 of 6010 Reply

Critical Thinking in Combat and Other Ra Rune_Lord
5/5/99 3:18 am
As a DM, I sometimes I don't use a Crit Hit/Fumbles chart, dependant on the players, the game, and sometimes I use a pre-generated chart. I have the old article from Dragon that came out in 1980. I am in the process of typing it out on Excel; my group wants copies for their own personal use, and the original article is old and tattered; not to mention, the copies that I have made are becoming hard to read as well.

I can forward you a copy when it is done. It should be another day or so; maybe more with my hectic shcedule. Just drop me a note via e-mail if you want a copy of it. Rune_Lord @yahoo.com

>> Rune Lord sends.....

This Is a Reply to: Msg 535 by Jestyr_B

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Message 539 of 6010 Reply

RE:Crits & Fumbles Vesper_Lafanel
(M/City of Greyhawk) 5/5/99 5:17 am
I prefer the simple double damage or whoops there goes your weapon method myself (extra dice roles make me cranky). Pictti Is right about the MERP crit hit tables though. If yer lookin for a good percentile based system...thats the way to go. You can also find the same crit tables in Rolemaster's Combat Law book (Same as MERP but even more advanced.)

These crit charts (and fumble) have some pretty good crits just make sure you change the HP damage around. (In Rolemaster its common for a 1st level mage to have 30 hit points or so). But these crit hit tables have one's for fire, ice, electricity, edged, blunt, martial arts....you name it they got a table for it......rabid bunny bites?

The elecricity one on a roll of a 100 explodes the victims head in an impressive light show I believe.

Vesper
(Where'd my MERP books Go?)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 535 by Jestyr_B

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Message 540 of 6010 Reply

Potions & critical hits Postmodern1
(M/Mpls MN) 5/5/99 12:40 pm
Greetings again all!
On the recent potions debate, one other thing that may come into play is how potions work in your world. Does the player have to drink the whole thing to get the effect, or does (for example) half the 6oz potion of invisibility produce either a) a person totally invisible for half the potions' duration, b) a person sort of "half visible" for the regular duration of the potion or c) something comletely different than the original effect?
In the example of the person putting the potion of etherialness in the drink, if we can assume it's not bright blue in color or smells like a cart of ox dung, say the victim takes one healthy slug off his mug, downs it, and then realises what has happened ..... Will he turn etherial immediately and come back to "solid" in a few rounds? Will he go partially intangible, perhaps with his armor and weaponry falling through his body? Will the mixture of alcohol destabilize the potion itself, causing either nothing or something completely unexpected to happen (you never know with magic ...) Will his full stomach of other fliuds slow the onset time? Are potions absorbed into the bloodstream like food or do they just have to be taken into the body? There are a lot of questions to answer to really get to the root of the problem.

On the critical hit idea, I offered it up to the players: Do you want to the possibility of a critical hit on a 20 knowing that the same rule will be applied to your enemies? The vote was something like 7 to 1 for it.
I have been using a chart from an artricle called "Those Are the Breaks" (Dragon 54, 1981, also Best of Dragon IV, 1985) that has a comprehensive chart based on a percentile roll, ranging from severe (an 01: hit causes damage to party member, weapon damaged and dropped out of character's reach) to no effect besides missing. It also tabled out what kind of damage to the weapon in descriptive and game terms ... Nice set up.
Of course, I only use it about half the time, as I prefer to add a bit of humor to the character's bad dice rolls. Nothing brings a character's head back down to size faster than trying to jump off a battlement to tackle an onrushing foe, then accidentally slipping and falling off said battlement and onto one's own spear (a little story from our last gaming session). It works for me, it might not for you.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 541 of 6010 Reply

Well, dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 5/5/99 7:08 pm
I guess I have been away for too long.....have missed a few messages. Sorry everyone. Been dealing with a growing baby who is also teething, but I'll have more time to come back around now.

And so,

ttfn

Dragn_lady

question: How do you all deal with martial arts damages and such?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 542 of 6011 Reply

Martial arts, Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/6/99 1:21 am
I have ever had to wrestle with the same dilema I used the text from the old DM's Guide and the text from monk character in the players hand book I believe it was pretty decent it has been a long time
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 541 by dragn_lady

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Message 543 of 6011 Reply

Potions Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/6/99 10:54 am
EEEK I have always had difficulty leaking info to the players about what the potion does is or etc it has always been a sore point for me, yeah post modern has a good point what of partial doses and all and reaction to other potions food stuffs and alcohol...I have no shame every one is treated the same when it comes to critical hits and catastrophic fumbles on both sides of the DM's screen so I will not be shamed for that I useually make it humouurous unless the PC rolls really bad over and over again then I try to minimize the damage. Here is a question...I started running an online game a few weeks what nearly a month ago any how one of the players (the one who was most adamant about me starting the game) has not contacted me in weeks his PC was fairly integral in a sub-plot and now ???
I reallly do not wanna keep his PC as an npc (I have too many already) what would you do? I have informed another player who was about to inter- act with the absentee fellow that the Elf (*&#@*&%!$@@$%^#&Elf) may or may not just up and vaporize before his very eyes any how I gotta run
Pictii americanus

By the way ICE or MERP what ever some of thier descriptions for critical hits and all make me queesy (no small task) most of em are just too funny though and rather realistic (in so far as when you read them you say to yourself yeah ok I can see that happening or oh god jeez that would hurt etc it is pretty neat but the system is incredibly cumbersome and difficult to understand
unless I have burned out the last of my grey matter and it is just me.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 544 of 6011 Reply

Martial arts: the scourage of all DMs Postmodern1
(M/Mpls MN) 5/6/99 11:36 am
If there is one thing that I _HATE_ it has got to be TSR's original set up for unarmed fighting, wrestling and martail arts. Talk about a completely random couple of tables!! I have abandoned these for a system more aligned with regular dice rolling: you tell me what you want to do and roll a hit with a + or - depending on the complexity of the attack. Damage is based on strength and (somewhat) on class.
This still does not completely solve the player who always is saying something like "I grap the guy by his collar, sweep my leg behind him and push him down backwards, bringing my knee down on his chest." Yeah, great idea (mutter, growl). This leaves me with a dillema: attack roll at about -8, three seperate to hit rolls (to the other players cry of "Hey, since when does he get three attacks?"), or say "Well, you can try to grab him this round ..."
The Orietal Adventures set had a very strong unarmed combat section, I wish I could remember who I borrowed that book to ... At low levels, it was somewhat unbalancing due to # of attacks/ damage associated with a particular style. At mid levels it becomes more even (hmmm ... my katana +2 or three unarmed attacks at d6 dam each?) and at high levels it got left in the dust.
There were several good articles in different Dragon mags that dealt with additional styles of modern-day martial arts styles, with suggested damages, special moves, associated weapons, etc. These went over huge with my players while we were doing Oriental campaigns.
Basically, I consider unarmed combat a pain in the ass.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 541 by dragn_lady

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Message 545 of 6011 Reply

Martial arts: the scourage of all DMs Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/6/99 2:56 pm
Hear here
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 544 by Postmodern1

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Message 546 of 6011 Reply

secondary skills Birdbone
(M/Washington) 5/13/99 9:49 am
does anyone use secondary skills (with or rather than NWP's)? I'm just wondering because they seem kinda like a bad idea compared with proficiencies to me.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 547 of 6011 Reply

secondary skills Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/13/99 11:13 am
I have used secondary skills from the beginning and I am having a very difficult time trying to figure out the use of proficiencies! So there!
My understanding of secondary skills was that they were more like a hobby your character had a proffession ie warrior and he enjoyed making his own bows and arrows bowyer it seems much more logical and playable to me however I have ever been accused of being narrow minded and pigheaded
so theres no accounting for taste
Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 546 by Birdbone

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Message 548 of 6011 Reply

low level death - please respond soon Birdbone
(M/Washington) 5/15/99 4:33 pm
I need some advice urgently. I have a group of 2 level 1 PCs. I give them a lot of help (they are surprised when I let a blow inflict more than 3 damage) but they keep dying on me! 2 questions: what should I do when they keep doing totally stupid things? and: what should I do when they die? I don't really like raising them too often but I don't want to make new characters all the time (they finally are getting experience).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 549 of 6011 Reply

low level death - please respond soon Harlequin_1998
(24/M/Birmingham, AL) 5/15/99 5:02 pm
My first recommendation would be to add more players to the group. A larger player group might help prevent pointless death. My second piece of advice is to use NPC party members. They could give support ( a fighter with a 3 int and 19 str) or advice (an old sage with a 19 int and 3 str). Just be careful not to let the NPC's lead the party or give too much info away. A third piece of advice (although not really recommended) is to let each player play 2 chars, thereby doubling the party size. It takes a little away from the role-playing aspect, but increases their chances for survival. Use this tactic only until the players can learn to survive better.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 548 by Birdbone

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Message 550 of 6011 Reply

low level death - please respond soon Vesper_Lafanel
(M/City of Greyhawk) 5/15/99 9:48 pm
I agree with Harlequin on the NPC's. Add a beleivable NPC or 2 for some help. Nothin' outrageous just another hand in a fight. Also, make sure you don't design too tough of fights for the party. Low level characters can get killed rather easily. Give them goals that aren't only combat related and reward them XP for that. Its always easy as a DM to get overly involved in the plot of an adventure and not realize that your sending the characters into almost certain death. If combat is the big killer in your campaign use smaller or less numerous monsters.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 548 by Birdbone

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Message 551 of 6011 Reply

low level death - please respond soon Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 5/16/99 12:31 am
Alternatively, I've often run first level characters in groups of only one or two. A rule of thumb that I took from an old Dragon Magazine article by Katherine Kerr (issue #73 Solo Adventures) is to make sure the total amount of opposition in the adventure doesn't exceed twice the combined levels of the party, and that the amount of opposition that the party will encounter at any given time doesn't exceed 100% of their combined levels. For two first level characters that roughly translates to 8 kobolds, no more than 4 to group, for the whole adventure. Any kind of special abilities or intelligent tactics must be taken into consideration as well. 8 well-organized, well-equipped kobolds can be really devastating, as can a single magic-user armed with spells like Sleep or Charm Person. By the same token, a magic-user in the party with a Sleep spell, or a fighter with platemail and a two-handed sword can count for quite a lot, which must also be considered.
Also, as Vesper suggested, a de-emphasis on combat-oriented adventures can do wonders to increase survivability.
Here are a few quickie scenarios for small first- or second-level parties that I've run, heard of, or read about. Some of these are nothing more than vignettes, but can be strung together or used between more involved scenarios. All of these that follow have at least the potential for a fight or two. For completely non-combat scenarios the possibilities can be really limitless.

1) A lone cleric is sent to a spend one night in a graveyard that's rumoured to be haunted. Maybe he or she runs into a poltergeist, an animated skeleton, a grave robber, or a couple of badgers. Or maybe it's just going to be a spooky night.
2) A PC is set up to challenge the town champion in a drinking or eating contest. Outside of the contest itself, the pc or party can deal with crooked bookies, small time thieves' guild hoods who want the pc to take a fall, and drunk and unhappy customers who've lost their bets.
3) A thief is sent to cut the purse strings of wealthy merchant's daughter. Whether or not he's detected, he's to deliver the purse to his partner who will make a run for it while he stays to take the fall. This can lead to a night or two in the local prison before his guild brothers can bribe an official to let him out. Medieval jails were often common rooms where all sorts of unsavory characters were lumped together. Alternatively, the beautiful victim may take an interest in a suave enough thief, or vice versa.
4) A druid, thief, and/or ranger decide to make life difficult for a timber camp that's causing an unusual amount of waste because it's hunting for a rare spice-bearing tree deep in the woods. The goal is to convince the camp to depart without necessarily causing any deaths.
5) A fighter takes on a small gang consisting of a two-bit thief and a hulking bully in order to make his village a better place.
6) A magic-user who's short on funds wants to sneak onto a farm and help herself to a couple of rare herbs, dodging guard dogs and hired hands. (Remember Farmer Maggot from The Fellowship of the Ring?)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 550 by Vesper_Lafanel

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Message 552 of 6011 Reply

low level death - please respond soon Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/16/99 10:06 am
There is no accounting for bad playing however...If youuu have made your adventures "easy" and help the players by pulling punches and they are still getting dead more often than not I would suggest trying to find out what their understanding of the game is why do they keep doing foolish things if people understand the repurcussions and still do foolish things there is nothing you as DM should do...I have always used Max hp for lower levels 1st- 4th then I begin rolling for them this gives the pc's a chance and nobody has a character with 4 hp this tends to keep them alive slightly longer while incuring no real unfair advantage yes all the monsters too have max hp some times there is no way to keep the pc's away from what you are certain will kill them I recently had 2 pc's (1st level)in an actual reality game encounter an immortal Ogre-Mage they were doomed I put loked doors in their way with substantial penalties for lockpicking etc but they persevered and invaded this legends space the fighter character was dead when the ogre hit him with his first of 3 attacks however I let the other pc and an npc rescue him I gave the pc who thought that running away would be a good Idea extra exp and made an indentured servant out of the comatose fighter by saving him and putting him into debt over it I rarely "stick to the script" when running first level players through adventures If you are killiing too many of em you gotta adjust your encounters (unless they are just hapless and doomed) to the strength of the party and certainly non combat goals are a way to do this also I also send out powerful npc's with their own agenda who are willing to work with the pc's for a while not leading the party or any thing but a 5th level fgt/thief really changes the survivability of a group

Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 551 by Ellowan

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Message 553 of 6011 Reply

low level death - please respond soon Elven_Night
5/16/99 11:58 pm
I have never run a first level game because of how fragile the PCs are but when I was considering it a few months back I thought up a few good ideas.

1 - on first level each PC has hit points equal to the highest roll they could get (i.e. fighters get 10,thieves get 6) plus their constitution bonus.

2 - make the first game or two more based on puzzles and thinking rather than fighting. Maybe have them get out of a maze rather than fighting through a dungeon.

3 - don’t start them at level 1.

Many people will disagree with me on that last one but that is what i have been doing and my DM before me used this method too. It is nice because a PC can take a hit or two and not die.

Elven Night

This Is a Reply to: Msg 552 by Pictii

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Message 554 of 6011 Reply

low level death - please respond soon Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/17/99 1:34 am
Sorry elven I have to disagree starting chracters at higher levels has never been a practice I have favored only once did I feel the situation warranted it five 8th - 10th level pc's and one first level guy I gave him the option of starting at 2nd or even 3rd level but he was a game fellow and refused he went through five characters till one survived but that became his favorite pc and even to this day nearly 20 years later last I saw my buddy we talked about that summer and his rough and tumble first level character starting at advanced levels takes away the sense of accomplishment and really does not give a good feel for the game players have characters that have powers with no understanding or appreciation for their given abilities I would imagine it to be a pretty hollow gaming experiance.

Pictii americanus
Stand Fast

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Message 555 of 6011 Reply

low level death - please respond soon Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 5/17/99 9:37 am
I have to agree with Pictii. Always start characters at first level for the reason's he mentioned.

I basically have three things to say about your dying PC dilemma:

1) Role Playing Advocate Department: AD&D is first and foremost, a Role Playing Game, not a hack and slash blood fest. Give them a few adventures that focus on role playing and have little or no actual combat. I have run entire adventures where there was never a sword drawn.

2) Beefing Up the Party Department: The group I DM for now has only two players. Since 1st level, they have been big on the war dog thing. They each bought a couple of war dogs each and used them to sic baddies first. This actually was frustrating for me the DM, but it worked for them. Also, sending extra NPC's with the party is a tactic I use often if I feel the adventure is too tough for them. Usually these NPC's will only accompany them for an adventure or two. A guide, who is also a handy fighter, a light boy who is a 1st level thief, etc. As a general rule, I never make the NPC a higher level than the lowest level PC, so that the NPC won't (often) steal the PCs' thunder.

3) Dungeon Design Department: Design your adventures around your PCs. In other words, don't give them more than they can handle. Simple concept, really.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 554 by Pictii

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Message 556 of 6011 Reply

Dungeon Master's Guild Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/19/99 3:03 pm
Greetings all I would like to ask about how every one runs games minimizing combat stressing problem solving puzzels etc...mostly what I am looking for are scenarios people have run or tried to run what did you do how did it go or not go what were some of the problems etc...every one has stories regarding such adventures some worked well others stunk so let us know
Pictii americanus
Stand Fast

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 557 of 6011 Reply

non-combat adventures Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 5/19/99 4:45 pm
Murder mysteries are always fun if you, the DM, like to keep track of multiple NPC's. Creating one for play is simple. Develop the plot, design the setting (the Lord's Manor for instance), develop the NPC's, and draw up a timeline. Dungeon Mag has published a number of these.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 556 by Pictii

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Message 558 of 6011 Reply

Help: I need an Idea Alpha_Rune
(17/M/Benton,Ar) 5/19/99 11:42 pm
I'm going to float the Buffalo river and camp.
We want to run a game while we're camped any Idea's?
please e-mail me as soon as possible or post here.

-Josh "The Don" McVay

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 559 of 6011 Reply

Help: I need an Idea Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 5/20/99 9:39 am
How many nights will you be camping? Whatever the length, you should run something that takes place in the wilderness, but scares the bejesus out of the players. Sort of a variation on the campfire ghost story thing. Make sure that when the session is over, you have the players looking over their shoulders as they walk to their tents : )

This Is a Reply to: Msg 558 by Alpha_Rune

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Message 560 of 6011 Reply

Help: I need an Idea Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/20/99 10:00 am
My basic edition blue book went with us camping several times a few of them I had other players for and the adventures were acted out and played during the day we would venture forth and discover things at night we would play scenarios based on our explorations it worked pretty well and more importantly we had lots of fun it also gave the other DM and myself a much better idea about sneaking around through the woods and exploring "dungeons" (abandoned buildings) there were even "orcs" on one adventure (toothless appalachian natives who yelled alot) I would say discuss it before hand sort out who wll DM etc... and try to tie the adventure into the travelling you are doing PC's embark on a multi part journey each stop they must locate another piece to the puzzel or another scroll or the next item on their scavenger hunt list....

Pictii Americanus

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Message 561 of 6011 Reply

Help: I need an Idea Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 5/20/99 10:08 am
On the other hand, do you want to run an urban or dungeon adventure for the sake of variety?

Umbratikus' idea of a campfire ghost story scenario is great! If he would care to expand on that in a later post and maybe offer an example I would be grateful. It's something I might want to run some day.

I don't have any good ideas for a wilderness ghost story at the moment, but here's a scenario that's kind of become a bit of a tradition among my friends and I to run at various points:
The party hears word (or encounters direct evidence; the setup's up to you) of a bounty placed on a unicorn's horn. This has probably been set by an unscrupulous mage or priest. The commonfolk are up in arms about it, since this is just the sort of thing you don't do. Anyway, a legendary huntsman has taken up the challenge. At your option he may have surrounded himself with a party of colourful NPC adventurers geared to taking out large numbers of druids, elves, rangers, and sylvan creatures who might get in his way.
Where to go next is up to your party. They can help the forestfolk stand up to this menace or they can race him to the prize. Also, what is the final nature of the patron who offered the bounty in the first place?
You can evoke an atmosphere anywhere from a mind game between two adventuring parties to a veritable war between good and evil forest factions and hordes of bounty hunters and self-appointed do-gooders. You could even have something like an Arthurian tale involving just a few pc's, a lone hunter, an ever-elusive unicorn, and a deep and primal forest filled with allegory and symbolism.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 559 by Umbratikus

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Message 562 of 6011 Reply

Pictii Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 5/20/99 10:11 am
Better watch out for those "toothless Apalachian natives!" Movies such as Deliverance and Southern Comfort come to mind.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 560 by Pictii

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essage 563 of 6011 Reply

Pictii Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/20/99 10:20 am
to quote monty python
RUN AWAY
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 562 by Umbratikus

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Message 564 of 6011 Reply

Ghost Story Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 5/20/99 10:21 am
I still say ghosts, or some other forms of undead are the way to go, because in reality, the possibility of their actual existence may really exist in the dark recesses of your players' minds. This fear factor will follow them back to their sleeping bags.

The adversary should definitely be something that the players are unfamilar with. They shouldn't know exactly what they are up against, but it should appear capable of dealing great harm or even death to the party. It may not actually BE undead forces, but should appear as such (those pixies can cast great illusions, complete with sound). An EVIL DEAD scenario might also play well here also. (Never saw that movie? Watch it before you go. You might not sleep either).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 561 by Ellowan

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Message 565 of 6011 Reply

Ghost Story Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/20/99 10:35 am
Zombies and dimentional gates whoa kooky

under the moon light are very spooky

fearful players acting goofy

they sing at your wake and dance on your grave

George Romeros variety just want your brains

frightening visages of the dead strolling around

instead of resting in the ground

wilderness terror whats behind that tree

better whatch out for the Badgers

Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 564 by Umbratikus

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essage 566 of 6011 Reply

Pictii Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 5/20/99 10:43 am
I didn't know you were a poet.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 565 by Pictii

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Message 567 of 6011 Reply

Help: I need an Idea elroyj
(34/M/San Jose, CA) 5/21/99 6:54 pm
That sounds like a lot of fun ... if you're going to the mountains, maybe a local mage has quested your party to find some materials, like a Roc's egg. Or if there are caves on your trip you could run into some goblins and spiders. hehehe wish I was going

This Is a Reply to: Msg 560 by Pictii

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Message 568 of 6011 Reply

Help: I need an Idea Pictii
(33/M/PA) 5/21/99 7:22 pm
or the mountain could be the home of a powerful dwarven clan leary of strangers but greedy for thier gold or a great Drow city could lie beneath the surface and trespassers will be prosecuted there are countless varieties of scenarios you could run both in the highlands and lowland rivers and swamps watchh out for that Shambling mound or those accursed Troglodites in the swamps when you stop your raft for lunch
Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 567 by elroyj

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Message 569 of 6011 Reply

I Have An Idea Fynduril_Skyrunner
(20/M/Pennsylvania) 5/21/99 8:29 pm
I have to agree with Umbratikus that the best way to go is definitely with the "ghost" story. I've thought up an -extremely- sketchy scenario start for you, hope it helps.

The PCs are hired for a job far to the (insert direction here) and must leave to get there with as much haste as possible. The quickest route is through a "haunted" forest a few days from town. If they were to circumvent the forest it would cost them say...10 days on foot, 6 on horse, and they can't afford to lose that much time, so they go through the forest. For the first day and night they hear or see nothing. I mean nothing, no brids, animals, nothing...the forest is deathly quiet and very eery. On the second night, as they are gathering around the fire for the nightly meal and the twilight is quickly turning to night (have this be the same setting in real life for added intensity), one of the PCs sees something out of the corner of his eye, just a fliting image, but enough to cause some tension and interest. This will happen repeatedly until someone goes to find what it is. When they do find it, it is a transparent image of a small child, wandering the forest in fear, a searching look in her eyes, fear on her face(No, not a ghost, a phantom). If she sees the character she will pause and look at them pleadingly, mouth moving but no sound coming from her lips, and then turn and start away from them, pausing every few moments to assure that she is being followed. If the PCs follow they will be led to an old and decrepit shack deep in the forest, the shack is falling apart and looks as if it hasn't been lived in for ages. The little girl will go inside the house and disappear. This is where the fun part comes in. The house is "haunted" be the rest of the family, all of them are wraiths, the girl phantom was killed by her parents before the wraiths could consume her, as they knew they would her. The rest is up to you. But I suggest that the foray return to the forest, perhaps a potentially deadly game of hide and go seek with the wraiths. I'd award extra exp if the PCs can find a way to release the wraiths without "destroying" them. Say a priest or what not has the power to release these once faithful followers of his God. Also, extra exp should be given out if the PCs can discern what trapped the litle girl and forced her into becoming a phantom.

The adventure should only last one night, with the PCs continuing back on their way the next morning, but with the night forever instilling fear in them. Remember to be as cryptic, macabre, and descriptive as possible. Use the forest sounds around you to enhance the feelings that the PCs are already having, and if you scare yourself, rest assured it worked on them as well.

~Fynduril

P.S. Umbratikus: "I'll swallow your soul!" "Ah come on lady, why don't you just kill me and get it over with?!?"

This Is a Reply to: Msg 568 by Pictii

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Message 570 of 6011 Reply

Camping Adventure wrarx
(20/M/Washta, IA) 5/23/99 10:28 pm
I have a somewhat evil idea.
Have the players, bring along equipment similar to what their characters have as if you were going to live-action. Then, on the second night out, abandon them (having an escape route planned is kind of crucial for that) or hide out somewhere. Leave a note saying that their adventure is either to stay alive and find their way back (in much more words, of cource). If you abandoned them, be sure to only leave bits of map for them if needed. Or ther adventure could be to find a criminal who has escaped the authorities (of course, that means you have to hide out and be the criminal). Maybe have cardboard cut outs of monsters around for them to encounter and hack on along the way.
Either way this should be fun if people aren't clumsy or completely lacking in navigational skills, plus it will give the players a chance to really get into their characters' shoes.

If need be you could also stick around to referee the whole thing and only offer help in truly desperate situations in the case of the abandonment. If you use the criminal, I'm sure another of your friends wouldn't mind running ahead and setting up puzzles for the party and, eventually, playing the part of the excaped criminal.

This whole thing will really show the players the rigors of travelling overland as adventurers (have them carry all of the gear their characters do, too, that ought to be interesting for a player whose, character has a STR of 16 or higher)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 571 of 6011 Reply

Good to be back Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 5/23/99 10:41 pm
Wow I have missed quite a bit in my forced abscense. From low level party death to soul swallowing demon women. Is there anyone on this board who has NOT seen Evil Dead I, II, and/or AoD?

Some of the best game sessions I have played were whilst miles from everything.Personally, I prefer the mystery setting mentioned earlier whether it is in the sylvan setting you will be gracing or a more 'urban' one matters little. I had a party going nuts in a small isolated fort during a blizzard and all because of a small Red Slaad running amok.

*dances around chaoticly*
Amok, amok, amok. . . . ahem, sorry

Thinking about it they almost died that night as well *big grin*


Umb, Picti I will be mailing you tonight or forst thing in the morning, once I get through the six thousand (It looks like 6000 but it is probably closer to 200) emails I have collected.

"Remember shop smart, shop S Mart"

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 572 of 6011 Reply

Dead PC's and the players who killed the Postmodern1
(M/Mpls MN) 5/24/99 12:51 pm
Ahhhh, how do you keep those low levelers alive? I have a couple fairly standard issue adventures that I run newbies on.
- The Mage's Tower - Players either geased, quested, hired, indebted, etc. to get an item out of a tower of a local wizard. Some low power traps (more annoying than damaging), a couple single magical guardians, some puzzles, and possibly a fight with the lord of the house. If they win and get out, they are rewarded and gain exp. If the mage beats them, they are imprisoned and forced to work on his behalf, perhaps to steal something from their former employers. Lots of room for fun scenarios.
- Caravan Guards - Hired on with a caravan headed in the same direction that the players are going, the players have the chance to make allies, enemies, and get paid extra repulsing the kobolds, wolves or other minor attackers after the caravan. At higher levels, it seems that the caravan members are all shapechanged/polymorphed rakhasha/demons/orge maji/etc out looking for suckers' gear to add to their treasure troves.
- Camping - I think you need to stay away from continual run-ins with monsters while resting, sort of a "Who's watch do the baddies show up on tonight?" but camping out has great scenarios built in to it. Hit-and-run attacking kobolds, a stealthy party of goblins after a prisoner, a mysterious noise out in the woods ... The ghost stories put out earlier were great!!
As far as low level monsters go, be carful to play them with some intellegence and not just numbers. This may be where you overwhelm your players statistically (25 kobolds are going to kill a 1st level fighter eventually ...)

To piggyback on the low-level monster thing, I used a party of orogs on my players in my last game ... eight of these lil punks almost wiped out a party of six 7th - 12th levelers because they were organized and used decent battle tactics; granted, the PCs made a _lot_ of mistakes, but they were all beat up something fierce at the end, not able to figure out how they did so poorly.
Anyone else have pesky little guys they like to use on their players? I have a group of quicklings who are about to make my players' lives hell ... they're only a couple hit dice but man, can they be fun!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 573 of 6011 Reply

A Question For All Fynduril_Skyrunner
(20/M/Pennsylvania) 5/29/99 8:05 am
Okay~

Well, my gaming groups has finally returned from their sojourn to different parts fo the country (college will do that to you), and they want to play once again. Yippee!! I've been missing our weekly gaming sessions, and I've missed DMing even more. Online play is no substitute for getting together with a bunch of friends, eating food made up of almost entirely artificial flavorings and preservatives, and gaming until your mind is so fried you can't walk, let alone play anymore. Wait, that was a bunch of rambling crap, I know I had a question for my fellow Dms in there somewhere...

Oh yes...it has been almost exactly 4 monhs since I last played, and I have made a few adventures in that time for when they returned. I told them this the other dy and was met with a chorus of boos and hisses (not really, but it felt like it). Every one of my players said they would rather I just wing it because they like my style more when I take it off the top of my head instead of planning. I must say I do as well, which is why I will wing it after all. I'll use all the work I have done these past few months as a basis for the game, but I don't think I'll follow everything the way I wrote it in the first place. Damn it, I'm rambling again...

Okay, let's just get this question out and then I'll leave. My question to you, my fellow DMs, is do you prefer to run concrete adventures or just free-lance from the top, or back, or side, or even bottom I suppose, of your head? If you like to run adventures that are already set, do you buy them, or do you make them yourself?

~Fynduril

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 574 of 6011 Reply

A Question For All Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 5/29/99 1:50 pm
I have started out with pre-planned adventures but my players NEVER, not once, came even remotely close to the intended story line. So I naturally do very little planning what I do instead is have a whole bunch of pre made encounters, traps, tricks etc. and when one of these things get the interest of the party I expand upon it .

This Is a Reply to: Msg 573 by Fynduril_Skyrunner

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Message 575 of 6011 Reply

A Question For All elroyj
(34/M/San Jose, CA) 5/30/99 12:48 am
I like to have a plan in mind. Like someone else commented, though, people never follow the plan. So its just a guideline. But if you have a few alternatives in mind, then you can use parts of your plan as it seems appropriate.

One thing I hate is when a DM tries to stick tenaciously to a plan that he worked on when it clearly isn't going to work. Alright, that was me. hehe So I don't try it anymore.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 573 by Fynduril_Skyrunner

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Message 576 of 6011 Reply

A Question For All Harlequin_1998
(24/M/Birmingham, AL) 5/30/99 1:54 am
I'll have to agree with what I've seen before and say that the best tactic is to set up some info beforehand, but in general wing it. My advice though is to keep good notes of the gaming sessions, because it will become easier and easier to develop beleivable stories when you can remember what's happened before.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 575 by elroyj

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Message 577 of 6011 Reply

A Question For All elroyj
(34/M/San Jose, CA) 5/30/99 7:39 pm
Actually, I've been playing in a game on-line here, and I have to say it offers a lot of advantages to just having everyone around the table. It's possible to pass notes between the DM and individual players, and much easier for the DM to control what is revealed. All in all, I would probably still rather play with everyone together, though.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 576 by Harlequin_1998

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Message 578 of 6011 Reply

A Question For All Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 5/30/99 9:14 pm
In my own experience, it is the planning that allows me to be flexible. I prefer whenever I can to run adventures that I've spent some time in preparation and in construction. It is when I've taken extra time to create a detailed setting and really flesh out numerous NPC's that I feel comfortable during that inevitable point when the party does something completely unexpected. Often part of the preparation is creating sideplots that can serve as the basis of the evening's major event if the party actually abandons the main storyline.
While my players have often been kind enough to say that they appreciate my gaming style whether or not it's ad libbed, it really is the carefully planned adventures that have been the most fun for the whole group, myself included. I've found that it is harder to gauge strengths for me on the fly and when I'm unprepared, my adventures are the most lethal. It takes a certain amount of reflection time for me to be able to tone down encounters and increase survivability. Also, my bad habit is to postpone placing treasure until close to the end of my preparations, so winnings from unplanned adventures are often rather meagre.
My basic planning often takes the form of Events and Encounters. While there is a certain degree of overlap, for the most part, Events occur based on time, and Encounters occur based on place. Some will occur with the party as a trigger and some will occur independently. I try to have a clear idea in my head as to what will happen to the whole if any Encounter or Event is changed, prevented, or aided. I also like to imagine the course of events if the party isn't present or simply does nothing. Ideally the result is a dynamic evironment that doesn't revolve around the party, but is something that the party has the power to change, for good or for ill.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 576 by Harlequin_1998

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Message 579 of 6011 Reply

spell point system (revisited) Birdbone
(M/Washington) 5/30/99 11:09 pm
I am thinking of implementing a spell point system and I wanted to run it by you all. Spell points have been discussed at least once in the club; I found a discussion starting at message 128. Well anyway please tell me if you see any problems here.

A mage has as many spell points as his intelligence divided by 3 plus his level (a level 1 mage with intelligence 18 would have 7 points), and a spell costs as many points as its level. A mage regains spell points at a rate of 3 per day of rest/study and 1 per day of activity.

So please express your opinions on this or point system in general.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 580 of 6011 Reply

Dungeon Master's Guild DEE_32_99
5/31/99 2:42 pm
hi i belive that the spell point system that bird ploted out would be tood nce to the players thats it

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 581 of 6011 Reply

spell point system (revisited) elroyj
(34/M/San Jose, CA) 5/31/99 3:32 pm
At first glance, your point system seems a bit unbalancing at the the early levels, and severely limiting at the upper levels. A first level mage with an 18 INT can cast his entire spell repertoire seven times, but a twentieth level mage with an 18 INT (26 spell points) can cast only 4 5th level spells and a 6th level, and then must rest for 9 days before returning to full strength.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 579 by Birdbone

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Message 582 of 6011 Reply

spell point system (revisited) Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 5/31/99 4:09 pm
What sort of limitations are in place that affect the level of a spell that a magic-user can cast? Could the aforementioned 1st level mage with 18 intelligence cast a Limited Wish if he was lucky enough to have access to such a spell, or would he have to wait to around 14th level like most people?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 579 by Birdbone

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Message 583 of 6011 Reply

Critical hit charts Xin1575
(24/M/Orlando, Fl.) 5/31/99 9:09 pm
I have been interested in implimenting critical hits in my campaign. I wanted to get any feedback on how other DM's do this. Do you make up your own critical hit charts? And how do you determine if a hit is a critical hit? Also, does anybody use Critical Fumble charts as well?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 584 of 6011 Reply

spell point system (revisited) Jiriki13
(29/M/Chicago area) 6/1/99 9:14 am
The Player's Options: Spells & Magic book has a complete spell point system already for you to use, if that's an option for you.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 579 by Birdbone

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Message 585 of 6011 Reply

Critical hit charts Jiriki13
(29/M/Chicago area) 6/1/99 9:40 am
The Player's Option: Combat & Tactics has a critical hit system. This system is based on weapon size vs. target size and the attacker can only gain a critical hit if they are able to hit you by more at least five more than your armor class and then you get to save vs. paralyzation to avoid the critical, but still take double damage. It's not too bad, but there is not critical fumble chart.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 583 by Xin1575

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Message 586 of 6011 Reply

A Question For All Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/1/99 9:49 am
I tend to play epic adventures. I mean epic in the sense that the main objective sometimes takes years of real time to complete. This, of course, means many adventures linked together that lead closer and closer to the main goal. The trick, then, is getting the players behind the goal 100%, which usually isn't a problem. Sometimes characters will die and new characters will replace them, but the story line remains intact.

Having said that, there is necessarily a great deal of "winging it." However, I still do a lot of planning for major encounters, and these encounters are generally pretty structured, however this "structure" is usually made up of events and encounters that often are not dependent on place or order of occurrence. This allows me to use them regardless of what course of action the players are taking. I write most of my own scenarios, but I do use store-bought material and stuff from Dungeon magazine, as long as they can be modified to fit into the grand scheme AND add significantly to the over all objectives. The players need to see that their efforts are getting them closer to their goal. "Side treks" are used sparingly, but are sometimes welcome breaks. My players often commend my playing style and enjoy the scenarios and the "Quest" a great deal.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 573 by Fynduril_Skyrunner

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Message 587 of 6011 Reply

Critical hits Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/1/99 9:55 am
I tend not to use crit charts, because it can really bog the game down (in my experience). It is great for the players, but the players are usually not too happy when they are used against them.

I do this: First, I do allow automatic max damage on a natural roll of 20, and I do have a fumble chart for a natural roll of a 1 (which includes damaging self, party member, dropping weapon, dropping weapon out of reach, breaking the weapon, and "nothing unusual happens," which usually responds in sighs of relief). I make regular use of called shots, which simulates crit hits to some degree. A called shot to a limb that takes 1/5 total hp of damage severs that limb. A called shot to the eyes blinds, a natural 20 on a called shot to the neck decapitates, etc.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 583 by Xin1575

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Message 588 of 6011 Reply

Good to be back Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/3/99 10:07 am
AMOK My what a concept I am in favor of all chaos organized or individual ha ha I have a lot of reading to do also my machine went dead two weeks ago and I just got it back last night
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 571 by Danduin_

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Message 589 of 6011 Reply

A Question For All Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/3/99 1:01 pm
I have found that no matter how much coaxing the party is still gonna do some thing that I was not prepared for most iritating when you have 50 odd pages of printed material that you are just beaming with pride over and I don't think I have ever had a group do what it was supposed to (bastards J/K) I find that I am more letahal when I have it pre planned and I am certainly cheaper in that case but as I have said they never do what they are supposed to normally less than a quater of any given session is pre ordained the rest of it come from my brain pan with assistance from various random charts I have developed over time then It is up to the roll of the die and the dice tend to be much meaner than me however the dice also give out more treasure than I would like it is hard "That door is locked..."
"tim the theif attempts to pick the lock"
"Oh how unfortunate tims lockpick breaks..."
"By the way you hear HEAVY breathing from the other side of the door..."
"We will not be thwarted..."
"There are 8 other doors in the room..."
"We break down the door..."
"The door is made of a solid piece of titanium..."
"Dolt the strong bashes the door with a felled tree retrieved from out side attemting to knock it off its hinges..."
"Awk Dolt succeds there is a huge angry Dragon glowering at you 'why did you break my door down?'..."
"We attempt to slay him..."
"Crap..."
Players never learn that we have spent so much time developing scenarios and that if they would let us play them it would be nice once in a while
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 578 by Ellowan

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VolkamGreatforge
(31/M/Yuba City, CA) 6/4/99 3:58 am
I am in the process of creating a fumble and hit charts for my campaign....anyone have suggestions for either or both?


Thanks


Volkam Greatforge, Bane of the Trolls, boyfriend to the LUNAoftheMIST, the duster of bunnies, the picker of nits, and tourguide to the stars...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci
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Message 591 of 6011 Reply

critical hits and fumbles charts Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/4/99 10:20 am
there are fantastic crit hits and failures in MERP
(Middle Earth Role Playing) I believe that is a role master game I am uncertain however the charts they have are extensive and inclusive I agree with most every one else however and have found that using extensive critical hit and failure tables just bog down the game and really I have found don't add much to the game I use a system of my own design and have after trying other systems with no real success have returned to the system I created when I was a youth more power to you good luck with the system what ever you decide upon. If it works and is playable please let us know If you go back a few postings you can find several abridged versions of critical systems used or experimented with by members of this brotherhood again I say good luck with it Players tend to get really upset when their 7th level paladin gets whacked by a goblin who rolled lucky and took their head
Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 590 by VolkamGreatforge

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Message 592 of 6011 Reply

critical hits and fumbles charts VolkamGreatforge
(31/M/Yuba City, CA) 6/4/99 11:55 am
I've used the rolemaster critical hits and fumbles but have found that the PC's get killed to easily and frustrates players as well as the DM....


Volkam

This Is a Reply to: Msg 591 by Pictii

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Message 593 of 6011 Reply

critical hits and fumbles charts Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/4/99 8:51 pm
I feel if you are using a criticaal hit/failure system when playing it should be something that all can agree upon after all the whole point is to make killing of things PC's and Nasties more "real" if your players don't like tha possibility of instant death then perhaps you should not institue a crit system I realized the drawbacks the first game I played with such a system and had to pull my punches all night just to keep the entire party from being decimated I am an extremely lucky dice roller and within the first three rounds of combat I had rolled crits on four of the six PC's the real kick in the pants came when after I returned to my old system on my side of the screen the players were still using crits and argued with me every time they rolled a natural 20 "why are you not using those tables from that book" "Cause the whole party would be dead by now and I would have been driving home about an hour ago" "But I rolled a 20..."
and so on so I returned to my standard system and my players really had no complaints
Players Bah I guess we need em but what an pain in the posterior
Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 592 by VolkamGreatforge

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Message 594 of 6011 Reply

Query!!! Rune_Lord
(312/M/Somewhere on Faerun) 6/5/99 5:46 pm
Dopes anyone have any information on a Dragon article that was published back in the 80s (about 83 or so) that details the witch class. I have a portion of the article but am lacking the High Secret Order Spells and page 16 of the article. If anyone can help, just drop a line.

Rune Lord

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 595 of 6011 Reply

Query??!! Rune_Lord
(312/M/Somewhere on Faerun) 6/5/99 5:47 pm
Sorry, Dopes should have been "DOES."

:-)

Rune Lord

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 596 of 6011 Reply

Query??!! Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/5/99 5:52 pm
I guess to some one who is over 3 centuries old, nearly 2 decades is a mere drop in the bucket. But dang man you are talking about the entirety of my adult life there, and among the only things I still have is my name, some records, and a few boxes of books.

Pictii
playin around

This Is a Reply to: Msg 595 by Rune_Lord

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Message 597 of 6011 Reply

A Question For All fistandantulus84
(???/M) 6/7/99 11:23 am
I agree. I have just spent over three months of my time writing a campaign, and in one night all my players went off on a totally different course! needless to say, i was very pissed off, but I have found very good ways of getting them back on course.
In your example, I would tell then that there was nothing in the room. If they insist on braking down all the walls, then I will tell them that they have come upon another empty room. After twenty rooms of this, if they still insist on doing this, then I will send them a monster which will kill over half of them IF they manage to defeat it. That is a good way of reminding the players whos in charge...the DM!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 589 by Pictii

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Message 598 of 6011 Reply

Epic battle table fistandantulus84
(???/M) 6/7/99 11:26 am
I was wondering if anyone had a tble made for players who are involved in a major battle. It would be hard to play the battle out if there was over ten thousand beings fighting at the same time. I was going to make it myself, but if anyone has one, and would be willing to share...or if they wanted to make one with me

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 599 of 6011 Reply

Epic battle table Xin1575
(24/M/Orlando, Fl.) 6/7/99 12:12 pm
Funny...I was able to post the same thing. I've got a campaign where the player are locked in the middle of a war. It makes for an interesting game, since I can use the war as an excuse to use random encounters. Also, it keeps the players from wondering off and missing the adventure I worked so hard to create. I don't use a chart or table of any sort. I just create battles whenever I want and I just make up the ending. I don't bother trying to make it random at all. If I want the bad guys to win the battle, then they do.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 598 by fistandantulus84

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Message 600 of 6011 Reply

Query!!! Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 6/7/99 5:40 pm
Hey Rune_Lord I do have that issue. I will get it to you asap. I am at work right now so I do not have the resources handy. . . . I'll send it to your yahoo account Word format ok?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 594 by Rune_Lord

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Message 601 of 6028 Reply

Dieties and initiative... Jiriki13
(29/M/Chicago area) 6/7/99 5:45 pm
My group attracted the attention of the diety Gargauth in the FR world. In F&A it states that all dieties gain initiative on mortals if they choose to do something. Gargauth has five attacks per round when throwing daggers. Would he gain all five before the mortals (PC's) could act or would his second throw come on segment 1 and then go from there or would you actually roll an initiative for the diety. Any input would be helpful.

Thanks,
Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 602 of 6022 Reply

Query!!! Rune_Lord
(312/M/Somewhere on Faerun) 6/7/99 7:04 pm
Thanks a million.....


Rune Lord

This Is a Reply to: Msg 600 by Danduin_

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Message 603 of 6028 Reply

Epic battle table Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 6/8/99 12:49 am
Xin1575 has a good idea on how to handle battles and wars, but if you really would like a table, I would suggest the War Machine system. You can find it in either the D&D Rules Cyclopedia or the D&D Companion Set. Both are out of print now, but they shouldn't be too hard to find in used bookstores or libraries. You could also try Battlesystem, but since each figure there is roughly ten people, a battle with 10,000+ beings could get rather cumbersome.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 598 by fistandantulus84

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Message 604 of 6028 Reply

Dieties and initiative... Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 6/8/99 12:55 am
I suppose your question depends on what you envision the role of deities in your campaign to be. Personally I would turn the PC's into swiss cheese before they could blink.
I suspect the intent of those rules is to give Mr. Gargauth all five of his attacks before segment one. However, if you would prefer to present deities as closer to super-powered mortals, than rolling initiative is entirely reasonable. Of course, you'll have to live with your results if your party of PC's has Gargauth spitted medium rare over a slow fire by the third round.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 601 by Jiriki13

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Message 605 of 6028 Reply

Dieties and initiative... Jiriki13
(29/M/Chicago area) 6/8/99 11:04 am
Thanks for the input Ellowan. I think that the dieties in my world will do just about anything they want to do before any mortal can begin to act.

Thanks,
Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 604 by Ellowan

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Message 606 of 6028 Reply

Deities and initiative... Zersch
(26/M/Cape Cod, Ma) 6/8/99 1:34 pm
If playing in the FR, or any world by that fact, what I do is what the core rules state. Deities themselves cannot go to the Prime Material (or as I've read it), that is why they send avatars. An avatar is still a part of the deity, but a small portion of their power sent somewhere. If your PC's square off with the god/avatar, then they stand a fighting chance, I agree with Ell that the deity should still recieve initiative, but this evens out the playing field just a bit. If the PC's *ahem* get slow roasted, then that is that, but if they defeat the avatar, then no harm to the god itself, just invigorating his ire toward them and they should expect more visits. But yes, the god/avatar should get initiative first.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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However... Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/8/99 4:32 pm
even the avatar of a deity should be nearly unbeatable, and even then, the cost of slaying an avatar should be great. What power would the deities have if too many high level mortals went around kicking avatar ass. This would lessen the faith that mortals have in their gods, if they can appear to be defeated by mere mortals. (to most mortals, the avatar IS the god. They would probably make no distinction).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 606 by Zersch

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Message 608 of 6022 Reply

Answer........ dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 6/8/99 11:07 pm
Sorry, love. We didn't start getting Dragon until '90 or so. Have you check for them on line?

Dragn_lady

(watch, just because I didn't read all the postings regarding this, I'll feel like a dope after reading the same comment from someone else!! :o)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 594 by Rune_Lord

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Message 609 of 6028 Reply

Avatars... dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 6/8/99 11:21 pm
the way I have handled dealing with avatars is that only magical weapons can hit, and only at half damage. It usually works out. However, if you want to read a good series of books regarding just this topic, then might I suggest the Avatar series? It concerns the god wars on Faerun. It had some really cool battles between avatars. Also, if you want to make it harder for the pcs to kill the avatar, remember what the avatar stands for.....the deity. Have him/her/it/they call on their followers for strength. That would require the willing relinquishment of the followers life..the energy then goes into the avatar for healing/strength. Just a thought.

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 607 by Umbratikus

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Message 609 of 6028 Reply

Avatars... dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 6/8/99 11:21 pm
the way I have handled dealing with avatars is that only magical weapons can hit, and only at half damage. It usually works out. However, if you want to read a good series of books regarding just this topic, then might I suggest the Avatar series? It concerns the god wars on Faerun. It had some really cool battles between avatars. Also, if you want to make it harder for the pcs to kill the avatar, remember what the avatar stands for.....the deity. Have him/her/it/they call on their followers for strength. That would require the willing relinquishment of the followers life..the energy then goes into the avatar for healing/strength. Just a thought.

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 607 by Umbratikus

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Message 610 of 6022 Reply

Answer........ Rune_Lord
(312/M/Somewhere on Faerun) 6/9/99 3:40 am
Thanks Dragon Lady....funny comment.

Rune Lord

This Is a Reply to: Msg 608 by dragn_lady

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ssage 611 of 6022 Reply

throwback Birdbone
(M/Washington) 6/9/99 9:54 am
Yeah yeah we've passed the critical hit/fumble tables a while ago, but I found one on here if anyone wants to see it:::

silverdragon.unibyte.com/articles.html

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 612 of 6028 Reply

Fears and Hatreds Xin1575
(24/M/Orlando, Fl.) 6/9/99 4:05 pm
I've got an interesting idea...I don't know where I came up with the idea, maybe I read it someplace. But, anyways, I want to incorporate a feature to my player characters called fears and hatreds. The way I have it set up is that upon creating a new character, the player will roll to see how many fears or phobias the character will have. Then, there's a seperate chart for the actual phobias. It creates a more realistic character, in my opinion, and has the potential for interesting role-playing. Imagine, a character that is scared of heights. He will suffer minuses to some of his attributes and hit rolls if he's in an environment that would trigger his fear of heights.

On the flip side, there are hatreds that the character will randomly roll for. It provides a little bit of random history for the character. Also, by encountering something that the character hates (for example: a stone giant), he'll gain some bonuses to strength because of the increased adrenaline rush. This would also make interesting gaming, if the character happens to stumble upon a tribe of stone giants. Does he madly charge into battle?

I also have an interesting idea for magic-users who suddenly become overwhelmed with hatred. Maybe, he's being tortured or something. Can the magic-user just draw in all of his magical powers and violently release it through his anger? I'm thinking of drawing up some charts for that too.

Perhaps, I'm having to use too many charts for a campaign. What do you guys think? I'm really into having a completely realistic game, and it seems the only way to do it fairly for the players is to use charts. Do you guys think that I'm just going overboard?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 1 by felsefeci

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Message 613 of 6028 Reply

Fears and Hatreds Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 6/9/99 6:08 pm
It's interesting to incorporate fears, hatreds, and other strong emotions and beliefs into a role-playing game.
However, it's my belief that you might be better-served if you simply let the players chose for themselves whether or not they will own any particular hatreds, fears, desires, or ideals. The best way to do this, I think, is to have a very strong world-design and background and then discuss with your players what their characters' histories will encompass. I think a character's motivations should fit well with the player's vision of what the character is like. It's perhaps perfectly reasonable to have a character who does not possess any strong hatreds or fears.
Depending upon the strength of the emotion, it might at your discretion trigger a game bonus or penalty. Perhaps bonuses might balance out penalties as well. For instance, someone with a strong fear of spideres may suffer a lot of penalties when they actually encounter spiders, but could be very alert to signs that might indicate the presence of spiders.
Similarly, an emotion can trigger many sorts of differing reactions. For instance, hatred doesn't have to served hot, in a blind charging rush. Perhaps a PC might instead become very focused and obssessed with the idea of wiping out all giants (to borrow your example) in the area, to the extent of ignoring other matters at hand. They could be cold and methodical about it, never risking themselves physically, but possibly gaining a bad reputation for their ruthless methods, or stirring up grievous reprisals.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 612 by Xin1575

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Message 614 of 6022 Reply

Charts! Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 6/9/99 6:16 pm
Hey if ya want to use 600 different charts for whatever go for it. It is YOUR game. I use a couple of charts (mostly random stuff to add a sense of dynamics to the game) I do not, however, like anything to slow down the progress of MY game (players included (joking, almost))

An idea for your fears and hatreds. . . . . let the players choose. Maybe make a roll to see if they do, indeed, have a fear/hatred then let em pick it and to really add realism talk to them (alone preferably, and BEFORE the actual gaming session) and ask them WHAT triggered the fear/hatred. I know that some people are just afraid of things but heck these are people on the path to greatness (or an anonymous grave) Their entire lives should be an epic story!

**************************************************
One humanoids ramblings

This Is a Reply to: Msg 612 by Xin1575

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Message 615 of 6028 Reply

Superstitions dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 6/9/99 11:38 pm
I have seen and used superstitions in non-human characters, like my centaur. There is actually a listing for that in the demi- non- human extra books. Don't have them, but have used them when someone else brings them in.

As for going too far with charts, I have always believed it to be nothing but personal preference. So, do what you will. After all, it is YOUR game. Do what you want. You are the first, last and only word in what happens during play!!

Have fun!!

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 612 by Xin1575

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Message 616 of 6022 Reply

Query!!! Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 6/10/99 2:32 am
I do have the article let me dig it out and all that good stuff (I think I replied to this once b4 or dreamed that I had) but first thing when I get up later today I will dig it out for ya. I am hoping that it is NOT in Connecticut where some of my stuff still resides!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 594 by Rune_Lord

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Message 617 of 6022 Reply

Re: Fears and Hatreds Jiriki13
(29/M/Chicago area) 6/10/99 8:42 am
I have just a couple of ideas. If you can afford to and choose to the Player's Options: Skills & Powers has disadvantages (phobias, etc.) and traits(precise memory, ambidexterity, light sleeper, etc.) that work well. You would have to either be willing to convert characters to this option or convert the traits and disadvantages to be used in your campaign.
The only other thing I have to say is that if you don't choose to use S&P, then I think that anything you choose is fine as long as everybody is still having fun. That's point is the most important thing about the game, how you run the game should be dictated by if the entire group is still having fun. If alot of charts bogs down the game then it's probably not a good idea. Go with the reactions of your players. Having fun is the bottom line.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 612 by Xin1575

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Message 618 of 6028 Reply

Re: Fears and Hatreds Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/10/99 10:04 am
I think a lot of good points have been expressed already. I think you have a good idea. Here are some builds on that idea:

1)Good role players will not need a table. I knew a player once who had a character that was deathly afraid of fire, because the PC had been burned badly in his character background (scarred flesh was his answer to a charisma roll of 5). He played it well without being forced to or without any incentive to do so. Another thief PC was, like your example, afraid of heights. This led to many humorous episodes.

2) Other disadvantages might fit well on you tables, besides fear and hatred. Things like nearsightedness, or color blindness, being allergic to something rather common, or being abnormally succeptible to alcohol. Not having certain proficiencies, like Reading/Writing or Swimming are disadvantages all to themselves.

3) Do you use the proficiency system? If so, how about this idea: Instead of making the fears/hatreds chart mandatory, why don't you offer the PC's an additional proficiency slot if they decide to roll/choose from your fears/hatreds table?

4) If you make the table a random one (instead of letting the players choose), then you should have a table entry for "roll twice more," giving the player TWO hatreds/fears, an entry for "none" and an entry for "player choice."

This Is a Reply to: Msg 612 by Xin1575

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Message 619 of 6022 Reply

Re: Query!!! Rune_Lord
(312/M/Somewhere on Faerun) 6/10/99 12:42 pm
Thanks......Rune

This Is a Reply to: Msg 616 by Danduin_

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Message 620 of 6028 Reply

Re: Fears and Hatreds dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 6/10/99 2:25 pm
How could I have forgotten my most active character.....she has a phobia about crickets, since I also have one. I know, that sounds very weird...crickets?? But, once your house gets almost over run with them in the summer, and you love to go around barefoot, (a halfling in a previous life????) and you just about step on one, you'll know what I mean!! Thinking back, I had a character many years ago, and she had some fears. Like, fear of flying. Her only means of getting around was a flying carpet!! She also really disliked giants. So, one day her brother heals one and shrinks it and brings him into our caves. Real cute, huh????

Use your players own phobias. Could be fun!! One of my fighters has a drinking problem. He drinks, gets drunk, falls down, breaks table with his head, no problem!! See? I can't drink. I am a cheap date. Can get drunk on two drinks!!!!!!
Have fun!!

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 618 by Umbratikus

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Message 621 of 6028 Reply

Re: Fears and Hatreds elroyj
(34/M/San Jose, CA) 6/10/99 3:15 pm
We used to require a certain number of points of disadvantages to be chosen when I played a RPG called Champions. Of course, with the points of disadvantages, you can beef up your character in other areas. So if everyone in the game is required to take 7-15 points of disadvantages when creating the character, they can make the role playing more interesting and have more options that they might want. Some of the phobias or disadvantages can be bought off as the character increases in level and gets more character points, though the more character-defining items should be retained, even if in a lesser form.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 618 by Umbratikus

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Message 622 of 6028 Reply

Many Thanks Xin1575
(24/M/Orlando, Fl.) 6/10/99 4:41 pm
I'm glad I got a lot of feedback on the Fears and Hatreds thing. Thank you all very much. You've helped out a lot.


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Message 623 of 6028 Reply

Looking for a DM macbeth_of_klamath
(23/M/Klamath) 6/12/99 5:17 pm
Hi everyone, im looking for a DM to DM a campaign over the net in a club. If anyone is interested email me at macbeth_of_klamath@yahoo.com or reply to this message. Thank you and good day.


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Message 624 of 6028 Reply

Calendar actinfoolish
6/13/99 8:27 am
Does anyone out there have any suggestions/war stories on the use of a calendar in their campaigns?

The reason I ask is because I've been running campaigns on and off for 13 years, none of which having a calendar. The players end up 15th level with the same 'youthful' exuberance as the first day they bought their swords. This is fun in most respects until I realize I've given my players god-like abilities. An 18th level fighter with a 18/00 STR could, by all rights, go up against a small army of bugbears led by a red dragon- and come out without a cut on his toe!! This ends up boring me with my own campaign.

I know that guy has to grow old. How is that done without ticking off the player to the point of quitting? I realize that if it were I who had worked my butt off on raising my character to a high level, only having the DM knock my primary ability down to a mere 18/01 at the ripe old age of 873, I'dbe shopping for a new DM.

I know that sounds a bit immature, but it's also reality. And reality is something we're all trying to escape in play.

Any Suggestions?

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Message 625 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 6/13/99 3:48 pm
I think that your fears are a bit . . . . . . . . exagerated. Have you talked to your players about this subject?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 624 by actinfoolish

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Message 626 of 6022 Reply

Re: Calendar Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 6/13/99 8:35 pm
I used a calendar to pretty good effect in my major campaign back in high school. The campaign was to take five years, and I had a list of the major events that would occur during that period, of course subject to the usual PC manipulation. Seasons and weather became awfully important early on. In fact, the first big adventure of the campaign began when the party got kicked out of their hometown in the middle of winter.
The calendar year was 364 days long, which I later learned corresponded to the World of Greyhawk calendar. There were your typical four seasons and twelve months. The months were thirty days long except for the 2nd, 5th, 8th, and 11th months which were 31 days. The sixteenth day of each of those months were the mid-season's day and were major holidays; they also corresponded the solstices and equinoxes. Weeks were five days long with the mid-season's days not counting as part of a week. The lunar cycle was forty days, so it would repeat itself exactly every ten years, and was the basis of the elven calendar (91 lunar months per decade).
The campaign was set in a single culture, so besides the elven version, I didn't have any other variations on this calendar.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 625 by Danduin_

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Message 627 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar-Danduin actinfoolish
6/13/99 11:40 pm
That's my next step. I thought I'd get some backup from my fellow DMs, then run my idea by my current players to see what they think.

They'll probably be receptive to the idea, but I'll definitely have to exchange ability points(ie. WIS for STR,INT for DEX) to keep players.

As I just typed that last paragraph, I see that would be a good idear anyway.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 625 by Danduin_

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Message 628 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar-Ellowan actinfoolish
6/13/99 11:42 pm
Did any age issues ever arise? I realize that 5 years wouldn't realize age changes, but did the subject ever come up?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 626 by Ellowan

Message 628 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar-Ellowan actinfoolish
6/13/99 11:42 pm
Did any age issues ever arise? I realize that 5 years wouldn't realize age changes, but did the subject ever come up?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 626 by Ellowan

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Message 629 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar-Ellowan Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 6/14/99 3:55 am
I felt the sense of passing time did imbue the players with a sense of their characters aging. For instance, a player could look back and say, "On this day last year my character was doing such-and-such." Realizing that the characters were getting older I think caused them to have a kind of evolving maturity, and certainly by the end of the campaign they were much different than when it began.
There was one memorable birthday celebration, too. Without remembering that it was a character's birthday, I had set up an armed raid on the village that the party was wintering in. When I began the session, the players immediately busied themselves with preparations for a big birthday bash, which surprised me, because they had never concerned themselves with such things before. The party was in full swing when the raid commenced, much to the pleasure of the enemy raiders. It turned what was going to be a relatively minor series of encounters into a very eventful and personal pitched battle.
As for the physical effects of aging, as you guessed the answer is no. Most of the humans started in their early twenties, and were in their mid- to late-twenties when everything ended, and for the non-humans, the effects were even less. Some people left their teens in the first couple of years, but that was a beneficial changed under first edition rules: +1 Str and Wis, I believe. The only time aging started to present itself was with a character who gained a power that aged him. He was starting to get into the middle-aged range, which I let him no with some subtle, and not-so-subtle hints. The end result was that he stopped using the power entirely. Oh well, no skin off my nose.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 628 by actinfoolish

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Message 630 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/14/99 9:35 am
One thing that helped me was keeping a campaign journal. Nothing elaborate, just kept the campaign date and some brief notes of the adventure and significant events. This way it was easy to keep track of how many years pass throughout the campaign. I also make good use of seasons. Not only does it give players a sense of time and place, but adds drama to the scene ("the smell of fallen leaves fills your nostrils as they crunch under your feet" or "you awaken to find that a light snow has covered your camp and small flakes are falling all around, creating a peaceful silence").

I, too, have never had to invoke old age adjustments (per 1st ed. rules), but the players are aware of them and do not seem against the idea. In fact, I think my players would embrace it when it came (all but one, that is). I am blessed with role players, who find the concept of the character more important than the numbers.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 624 by actinfoolish

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Message 631 of 6028 Reply

Calendar Postmodern1
(M/Mpls MN) 6/14/99 12:25 pm
I would have to say a (somewhat) accurate calendar helps your game continuity and the players' level of involvement.
It's easier to track things like time spent traveling, needs for fresh supplies, or when big things are happening in other places; that all speaks to game continuity and "realism". Extra stuff like lunar/astrological movement could also be something you add in. I loved Ellowan's examples of calendar and the holy days!
I actually wrote out a time table for about six months at a time with almost daily events for central Faerun ... it took a lot of time but the PCs dug it. If they happened to be where that day's "big happeneings" were, they might see it. Otherwise, they would hear about it about a week later. There was so much happening around them, they couldn't keep on the track that they set off on :) Fun from a DMs perspective ... it's a twisted thing!

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Message 632 of 6022 Reply

Re: Calendar fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 6/14/99 10:25 pm
Personally, I couldn't run a game without a calnendar. I started with the calendar supplied in the Forgotten Realms boxed set and expanded upon it. I know have Holidays ,different holidays for different parts of the realms. Special events that happen on certain days, wheather or not the PC's are ther. Annual events, like Gardina's Gypsy Traders will arrive in Surd every year on the third week of spring and stay for one week before moving on, or graduation day at the Bard's Colledge in Ravens Bluff (big party). I also have one "special" day that I added to the calendar, I call it the 'Day of Magic'. On this day magic goes wild (or doesn't work at all). This has been a lot of fun for players and DM. There is one player that gets rid of ALL magical items on or near him, wastes all his spells in memory, and crawls into a hole to wait the day out.

Like all things in a game, you get out of it what you put into it!

As far as aging goes, it has never been an issue. Most of my players are happy to retire a character once they start getting to old. On occasion a character will be brought (forced) out of retirement to take care of major crisis. That 19th level Mage could use an aprentice, or he could sponcer an adventuring group. The fighters can always setup there own hamlet/town/city/kingdom to rule and have little time left to go adventuring but still receive EXP for running there piece of the planet. Priest can be come the local Temples High Priest. Etc. etc. etc.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 631 by Postmodern1

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Message 633 of 6022 Reply

Calendar thanks actinfoolish
6/15/99 12:11 am
With all those ideas and input, it seems silly for me to be a little apprehensive about a calendar. My thanks go out to all who replied and to those of you who will, soon.

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Message 634 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar thanks Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/15/99 7:56 am
I have missed a bit of good stuff...I use seasons to roughly denote the passage of time I have not had a game run for any length of time warranting an involved calendar (Much to my chagrin) but I have recently created one naming months and coming up with "holidays" the lack of an actual calendar has never been a real problem for me as my campaign is set in a fairly primitive time frame
Pictii americanus

I have champions and palyed when I was in the Navy it was a cool game I always liked the character generation system and spent long hours trying to convert the outlined disadvantages to D&D terms with little success the players I had at the time were not into more realistic characters they wanted demi gods not actual characters.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 633 by actinfoolish

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Message 635 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar thanks elroyj
(34/M/San Jose, CA) 6/15/99 1:44 pm
> I have champions and palyed when I was in the
> Navy it was a cool game I always liked the
> character generation system and spent long
> hours trying to convert the outlined
> disadvantages to D&D terms with little success
> the players I had at the time were not into
> more realistic characters they wanted demi gods
> not actual characters.

Typical players :) Role playing adds a lot to the game, I think.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 634 by Pictii

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Message 636 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar thanks actinfoolish
6/15/99 2:30 pm
I suppose that IS what the game is all about to the players-getting to demigod status. Hell- that's what it is to us, we're actually playing 'god'.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 635 by elroyj

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Message 637 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar thanks Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/15/99 7:58 pm
Ahh yes but in game terms we are GOD and the players are mere pc's

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 636 by actinfoolish

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Message 638 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar thanks actinfoolish
6/15/99 8:05 pm
So True

This Is a Reply to: Msg 637 by Pictii

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Message 639 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar thanks Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/16/99 8:53 am
I have to respectfully disagree. I don't think the game is about how powerful the characters can get. The game is about the scenarios the DM creates and how the players respond to those scenarios. To me, how powerful the PCs are is irrelevant to the game. The game is just as meaningful at 1st level as it is at 20th level, the activities and adversaries just change. I have never played or DMed a campaign where any character has ever risen above 14th level, and that was a rarity. If the characters aren't slain, they usually retire.

As a DM, I like the lower level adventures the best. My players have traditionally liked the mid-level (5-8) ones.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 636 by actinfoolish

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Message 640 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar thanks Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/16/99 1:16 pm
I agree here too I feel as a player I like playing characters from levels 2- 7 or 8 I really don't much care for the unltra power noise too much as a DM my very first campaign (the longest running I may add) had characters who were of rediculous level (I was an inexperianced youth) and It always bothered me the way that first group would get upset if any thing lets say that again ANY THING happened to their precious demi-god like characters (who by the by were some of the most one dimentional characters I have ever encountered) once I got a handle on the game and played with a few other groups I caused an apocolypse and killed the world I lost a few friends over that they were that upset but I really did not care then and still don't now the next effort was better and I feel the campaign I have set up now Is pretty good I am pleased with it and the players think its good too
Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 639 by Umbratikus

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Message 641 of 6028 Reply

Re: Calendar thanks actinfoolish
6/16/99 5:58 pm
This is the whole reason I was asking about a calendar. I, too, prefer the 4th thru 8th level games. I'm just trying to knock my guys down a notch or two so I can get back into the swing of things.I'm so bored with these demi-gods-I should've never let it get to this point. Mangor(my cleric) may be getting a sign from "god" shortly that they should all start retiring or an apocolypse could occur here, too.I realize that some of my boredom is my own fault, though. Sometimes I get too excited and want them to get to my new Gorgon a little quicker than they should. That part of me is still that 14-year-old hack 'n slash DM.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 640 by Pictii

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Message 642 of 6028 Reply

Power Play fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 6/16/99 9:29 pm
I must agree with the lot of ya. My best and most memorable games are with characters that are not demi-gods. The game I'm currently DM'ing/playing has characters ranginging from 5th to 10th level.
I say DM/play because I DM some of the adventures with different characters, and play a character or 2 while my brother DM's. The end of this "world shaping" campaign is, as yet, unwritten. My co-DM and I only have a general plan of events, what happens is up to the players.

Anyway, back to the Super Characters. This "campaign" will see several charcters dead or retired by it's conclusion. Also some have been hit with a level draining creature (or 2). Now they have the wisdom of experince but not all the stats that go with it. The character develops more character. Some players have expressed an intrest in having their human character take up a new class (if possible) if they survive to the end.

I have recently played with a "monty-haul" DM that likes to have SUPER (WO)MEN as characters. after a couple of games I really lost intrest in the game. Their was no chalenge left.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 641 by actinfoolish

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Message 643 of 6028 Reply

Re: Power Play dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 6/16/99 9:43 pm
I have to agree, dear. I also was in the afore mentioned Maunty Hall game. I got very bored, and very tired of it all. My thief ended up attaching herself to a dwarf specialized fighter, and is going to change her class. IF I ever play her again, that is.

Too high a level often makes for dull play. "Well, my 23rd level fighter takes out the Lich with one swing" type junk. Not fun. That just makes the DM all the more determined to kill that character. Just leads to irate DMs. Broken capalaries in the forehead.... migraines.... sweaty palms.... You get the picture.

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 642 by fendicaf

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Message 644 of 6028 Reply

Don't get me wrong... Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/17/99 9:16 am
I'm not necessarily saying that high level is bad, I just prefer lower levels. High level campaigns can be satisfying, too. What it sounds like to me is that your players aren't sufficiently challenged. So challenge them.

What would happen if they came across a band of NPC's that were just as powerful as they are (and played just as ruthelessly by the DM)? The only problem with that is it could double the PC's arsenal of magic items if they win. A mirror of opposition perhaps? How about the Outer Planes? They wanna be demi-gods? Throw them up against REAL demi-gods. Better yet....Send them through the Tomb of Horrors .

Also, you could put them in situations where their powerful nature doesn't come into play. Role playing situations. Mystery or puzzle type adventures that calls upon the intellect of the players and not on the might of their PCs. Situations requiring diplomacy or involving political intrique.

One of the wonderful things about the AD&D game is that any character can be given an appropriate challenge, regardless of level or power.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 641 by actinfoolish

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Message 645 of 6023 Reply

New Magic Points system QMtheDM
6/17/99 10:24 am
On request of Steve (www.adnd.com creator) I have created a new Magic Points system. All who request it will be sent via e-mail. Note this is in no way similar to the Spells and Magic, or any other, system.

Quincunx Master

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Message 646 of 6028 Reply

Re: Don't get me wrong... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/17/99 12:17 pm
Now as a DM I feel I could meet the challenge of higher level characters in any number of ways the ones you mentioned being most likely however I am certain at this point in time the next pc to reach rediculous level in my world will have earned it and more likely than not will deserve it I spoke on the phone to one of my old players last night he told me some frightening things I had forgotten about our early games I hope that maturity and experiance have fixed alot of what it was that I had done wrong in the first place to allow the pc's to get too powerful those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 644 by Umbratikus

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Message 647 of 6028 Reply

Uh oh Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/17/99 12:19 pm
I had better be good I see the player from my youthful game has joined the club
lol
Pictii americanus


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Message 648 of 6028 Reply

Re: Don't get me wrong... Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 6/17/99 3:36 pm
There have been several posts on the subject of high level games recently, and I think everyone had something good to add to the discussion. This is tangential to the main topic, but it's an idea that hasn't let go of me all day so I'd better air it out.
It would be interesting to run a game where people could achieve high levels of power, but to strictly limit the availability of magic items and certain spells. What if, at the 15th level of experience, a party only had one permanent or charged magical item for every two characters, and maybe one or two single-shot items per character, if that? And what if the clerics didn't have access to spells like raise dead and dispel evil and the magic-users had never learnt their lightning bolts and polymorph others spells? Just to rub salt in the wound, let's have everyone roll 3d6 for their starting attributes. I don't know what method is commonly used among the people here, but these days it's been a rare thing for me to see a PC wandering around with a '5' in one of their stats. Now you could take a lot of monsters and without having to tweak them from the rules, really traumatize these characters.
Now I've never played in such a game, but I think that if it was done right, the players would never miss their magical items. One close example I can think of is the AD&D campaign I played in when I was in high school, which I still to consider to be the best game I have ever played in or heard about. The game lasted about two and a half years and by the end we'd reached level 10, more or less. I was a little bit lower, because I was multi-classed. Anyway, after all that time, my character had a grand total of one genuine magical item, and I was really proud of it! It was a magical sword that I went through blood, sweat, and tears to win. There were a lot of other aspects to that game that I think were really unique, but I'll talk about them some other time.

At the other end of the spectrum, in a more typical high-level game, influence can be taken from the realm of science-fiction as well as high-fantasy. The enemies could use banks of crystal balls to keep track of events and mass-teleport warrior-assassins to take out their enemies. Magical items could become more like technology, changing the face of the entire game world, and making the pc's arsenals less valuable and unique in comparison. For instance, getting a couple dozen crystal balls isn't that great of a haul if only magic-users can use crystal balls and every magic-user now has his own, plus a spare for the family room. I suppose once in a while an installation of Tapestries for Crystal Ball (TM) could freeze up the whole thing and the mage in question would need another one...
Just a few silly thoughts...and I haven't played in a game like that either, but again if it was done right it could be a lot of fun.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 644 by Umbratikus

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Message 649 of 6028 Reply

Re: Don't get me wrong... actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-land of chicken p) 6/17/99 5:20 pm
I don't want to just kill'm, I'd like a little torture, first. First I'm gonna try the rival NPC party idea. It's so simple, I don't know why I haven't thought of it before!! I guess that somewhere in my mind that would fell like I'm splitting my campaign. That's some thing I've never been interested in doing- it's complicated enough keeping my players straight.

If all else fails, one quick volcanic fireball from the demi-god, Crul, should do the trick.

If it sounds like I'm getting vindictive now, it's just revenge for my players' requests of time teleportation for aquisition of firearms- like they aren't powerful enough. I guess I'll be shopping for new players at ol' PBEM News soon. These guys are losing interest, and they're losing MY interest.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 644 by Umbratikus

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Message 650 of 6028 Reply

* * * New Topic * * * fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 6/17/99 6:46 pm
Multiple DM campaign! (MDC)

As I mentioned in an earlier post I am part of a
MDC game. This happened because all the players I play with are also DM's. The idea of a MDC was sort of self-developing. We all wanted to play and DM. Each DM had there own set of adventures to watch over(manipulate). It began when my brothers NPC adversary stole an artifact from one of my PC's. This artifact was a Talismen of Evil that MY group was search for ways to destroy - permanently! At this point there are 4 diferent groups in volved in this plot scenario with only 3 DM's.
This may seem confusing and a recipe for disaster but all of us involved are in it for the fun and as none of us (not even the DM's) know what the ultimate ending will be. We, as players and DM's, are expiriencing the story as it goes on. It IS a chalange for the DM as we plan certain events but not the out come of the events. The story line is actually developed by the players in game.

Has anyone else (beside Dragn_Lady) played/DM'd a game like this?


ps. Ok D_L you too!

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Message 651 of 6028 Reply

Re: * * * New Topic * * * actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-land of chicken p) 6/17/99 7:53 pm
I haven't had an MDC, but I thought that I should say,"Bravo!"

The way you describe it, it soundsfun!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 650 by fendicaf

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Message 652 of 6028 Reply

just feel like talking Birdbone
(M/Washington) 6/17/99 8:54 pm
I don't know if that thing works, but the page views counter says we're coming up on 20,000. I suppose it's a meaningless milestone though.

Anyway, does anyone know where I can join a game online (as a PC)? I want to get some ideas on how others play for my game.

thanks


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Message 653 of 6028 Reply

Re: just feel like talking actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-land of chicken p) 6/17/99 9:13 pm
My personal favorite:
http://www.pbem.com
Want to get in mine as a single player(maybe wih an NPC or two) in 2 weeks? (I know I must be crazy if I think one of the club members would join in after my last few postings!)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 652 by Birdbone

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Message 654 of 6023 Reply

Re: * * * New Topic * * * dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 6/17/99 9:46 pm
Why, thank you for including me, Fendicaf. I guess I'll unlock the door for you, afterall. And, yes, everyone, we really are married. This is the one who thought up all those nice names for my daughters. 'Member awhile back when I toldyou what their names were? Zarahbeth and Naomi. Zarahbeth is the 10 year old that we introduced to the game a few years ago. Ahem....I digress.

About MDC: It can be fun, but you have to leave egos at the door. Otherwise, hurt feelings can occur. And, afterall, the game is about fun, right?

High level pcs. I personally don't like them. It gets stale and boring after a while. Sure, every large city/town needs a higher level pc, to keep the peace or to run things, but to actually play them anymore is no longer appealing.

Just my 1 and 1/2 cents worth.

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 650 by fendicaf

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Message 655 of 6028 Reply

0 level adventure ideas needed... Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 6/17/99 10:33 pm
I have a player that wants to play a paladin and we are going to start him out as a squire at -1500 experience and work him from there, role playing is intiation into the ranks of paladins, ceremony, etc. I was just wondering if anyone had any good ideas for solo 0-level adventures. I would like to come up with something other than just kobolds or the like. I had an idea of having the PC be squire to a paladin that is sent on a quest and the squire must go with him and ends up saving the day or be the only one to survive and kill the enemie. It's just a thought and I'm still working on details.

Thanks,
Dave


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Message 656 of 6028 Reply

Re: 0 level adventure ideas needed... Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 6/18/99 2:16 am
It seems that a lot of possibilities for court intrigue present themselves. You could develop what kind of relationship he has with his knight. Is the knight a true paladin, with all the magical powers, ungodly charisma and such? If so, he must be a rare hero. Does he think his squire has the right stuff, or is just extra baggage? If I was a paladin going on a dangerous quest, I might think twice about taking my inexperienced squire along, but staying at home keeping down the fort might provide a lot of interesting opportunities (and temptations), and what happens if said paladin never comes back?
Certainly there would be a lot of interests who would love to bend that squire's ear in order to get more access to one of the champions of the realm. Also, there are probably a host of enemies waiting on the wings. Maybe someone would like the poor PC to have an unfortunate accident and replace him with a "better" squire. Or a less lethal but more obnoxious method would be to send along Mr. Perfect Squire to show the PC up and eventually replace him. A variation on that would be someone who aspires to replace him, but isn't a pawn of the bad guys, just an obsessed rival.
Then there are tourneys to participate in! Even for a simple squire there are melees, archery competitions (do 2nd edition paladins use bows? can't remember), and wrestling matches while the big boys do the jousting. Not too mention tons of feasting, debauchery, and general rowdiness all throughout. A paladin's position in a tournament could be controversial. Perhaps all the clerics denounce tournaments but the king requires all his best knights to participate, a situation perhaps similar to the middle ages when the pope declared that anyone who was killed in a tournament was guilty of the mortal sin of suicide. Which side is the paladin going to take? Does your PC want to stick with squiring for a dishonoured knight who's just been banished for corwardice by the king on his birthday? And what will all his friends think? Or perhaps the paladin wants his squire to stick around and make a name for himself at court in the hopes of one day being able to counteract the bad influence of the king's evil counsellors.
Perhaps one day your PC discovers that his mentor is nursing a fatal flaw that is sure to cost him his paladinhood sooner or later. That could make for an interesting challenge.
Another idea is that the church suffers a schism and the pair wind up as wanted heretics! Your old fellow knights and priests are hunting you down for the big bonfire next fortnight and you have to somehow make your holy vows of honor fit with the reality of being outlaws on the run.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 655 by Jiriki13

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Message 657 of 6028 Reply

Re: 0 level adventure ideas needed... Rune_Lord
(312/M/Somewhere on Faerun) 6/18/99 3:19 am
Here is an idea...Pladins, even hopefuls, should be tempered and think things through.....I did this to one mid-level paladin. Have the paladin (squire) walking through the wood and see an elf (pick your demi-human race) fighting a goblin. The paladin still at a distance, sees the elf fall; unfortunately the demi-human hits his head on something and is dazed and out of it. The goblin goes over and plays out the part of the slayer and acts like he kills the demi-human. What will the paladin hopeful do???


The paladin I ran through killed the goblin. Only to find out after the efl came about his senses that these two were friends since they were young. Cruel and twisted, but the paladin did not use any of the abilities he had, much less the avenger he had to detect anything about the goblin.

I know, I probably will be getting nasty grams about this, but hey, we all have to have our fun one way or another and no one told that stupid Awufully Good (yes, awful, not lawful) paladin t kill the goblin. Just because he chose to stereo-type the goblin with his kin as being evil,is no reason to yell at me. Enough on defending myself.

Anyone have views on this??? I accept crticism rather well.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 655 by Jiriki13

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Message 658 of 6028 Reply

Re: 0 level adventure ideas needed... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/18/99 6:28 am
I hope for the sake of all awfully good characters every where that the paladin was branded a case closed and resorted to his obvious true nature as a thug and was stripped of all his goody goody paladin crap

on another note If you were a knight you would not even consider leaving your squire behind no matter what his experiance level
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 657 by Rune_Lord

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Message 659 of 6028 Reply

Rival NPC party Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/18/99 8:52 am
Instead of creating a kick-ass group of NPC's, throw the party against a Mirror of Opposition. This will create an exact duplicate of the party, complete with the same abilities and magic items. Let them fight themselves and see how they like it. The beauty of all of this is that if the NPC party loses, they vanish into thin air, including all of their treasure and magic. This way, you don't end up making your ultra-powerful PC party any more powerful by doubling their magic items.

The opportunity to fight themselves and the xp they would surely get should be reward enough.

If DMed correctly, this battle could go either way (PC winners or NPC winners). You couldn't find a more even fight.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 649 by actinfoolish

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Message 660 of 6028 Reply

Bravo Ellowan... Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/18/99 9:03 am
...for your great ideas for the squier PC. I might add that for a 0 level PC, -1500 xp might be a little steep. I might go for a max of -1000. Keep in mind at this level, he/she would be getting xp in very small amounts.

Here are some more ideas:

Perhaps your squier is anxious to prove himself and become a knight. One night, he hears his knight talking with other knights about a terrible monster reported nearby, and the knights plan on going out at dawn to vanquish the beast. Perhaps the squier decides to go out for himself that very night. The beast could be something relatively easy (or not).

Perhaps the PC learns of a plot to murder the knight, but the knight will not listen because the accused is one of the knight's dearest freinds. It is then up to the squier to gather evidence to offer proof, or ultimately to help foil the murder attempt.

Perhaps the knight is a bumbling fool, and the squier ends up saving the day again, and again, and again... (but the knight ends up getting all the credit. The squier, being LG and wanting to perform his duties as a squier to the best of his ability, shouldn't mind).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 656 by Ellowan

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Message 661 of 6028 Reply

MDC Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/18/99 9:10 am
I played in an MDC throughout high-school. We played in TSR's Greyhawk campaign, and we all liked to play. Therefore we all alternated the DM role. We played mostly store bought modules,(except for myself, my brother, and one other player. We made our own), or the occasional adventure in Dragon Magazine (this was in the days before Dungeon Magazine). Major campaign events, such as wars, natural disasters, political events, etc, were proposed and then voted on. It actually worked suprisingly well.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 650 by fendicaf

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Message 662 of 6028 Reply

Re: Rival NPC party Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/18/99 11:47 am
Nasty trick I like I like
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 659 by Umbratikus

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Message 663 of 6023 Reply

Re:MDC Zersch
(26/M/Cape Cod, Ma) 6/18/99 1:29 pm
A few yers ago, I had a Shadowrun game going. I had a co-GM with me, b/c I had over 30 players at my table. Co-operation can be good, but it has to be fair to the players. You both have good ideas and it can quickly grow to an grandeous idea that will have the player's head spinning 720 degrees, but don't lay it on too thick. If all they have to do is battle kobolds, be careful it doesn't become an army of ogres. High level campaigns and large groups (I hope no one ever has to deal with 30 players at once, it's an ordeal) are probably the best reason for MDC's. And do hold back an idea or two if the other GM's sounds better. If you don't you quickly become the bickering ettin and gameplay ceases. But all in all, my games were consistant and when one of us lagged, the other picked up. We clicked and that's hard to find in any group. As per the God reference, one of players once told me "All DM's are are G.O.D.'s (Game Operations Directors)"

-Z


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Message 664 of 6028 Reply

Re: 0 level adventure ideas needed... actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/18/99 5:35 pm
In my opinion, the best way to get my squires xp's has to be fun(in the role-playing sense) and fit into the Paladin's initiation rights.
IE: A drunken brawl that the squire wins is fun, but how does it look in the king's eyes? Would he award the squire Paladinship for beatin up a drunk? Probably not.
IE: Finding and/or killing a long lost pal is intriguing, and also constitutes xp's; but is that the next step to Paladinhood?
My point is this- be careful with that squireship experience point giving. I myself only award a squire experience points if the actions actually pertain to the young Paladin's training. Saving the king's honor(even if it's as simple as keeping a secret) would be basis for xp's, but I wouldn't even consider doling xp's out for saving the clumsy Paladin's face.
Normal xp's, although a little boring, would be for such tasks as mastering the squire's favorite weapon proficiency, a successful hunt, etc. Those type of xp's can be given out at a weekly rate(I give 1 xp per character's day- it takes about 4-5 years to become a paladin my worlds).

In closing- keep in mind that squireship was not fun at all- they were beaten, starved, ridiculed and worked like slaves. The squireship role is not one to be taken lightly.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 655 by Jiriki13

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Message 665 of 6028 Reply

realism Birdbone
(M/Washington) 6/18/99 9:51 pm
I think that making the squireship long and arduous is the wrong way to go. It may have been really hard back in the day, but that's why it's not like that anymore. How much fun is it to play a guy who works all the time, wears rags and eats bone scraps while sleeping with the cows? In my opinion, the game is about having fun first and realism second. There is a netbook that talks about how to improve your game, and it says to get rid of boxed worlds because they are not realistic. This is retarded logic! Almost nothing about this game is realistic and that's how it should be.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 664 by actinfoolish

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Message 666 of 6024 Reply

Re: 0 level adventure ideas needed... mharelick
6/19/99 7:14 am
If I chose to play a paladin and the DM decided to start me off at 0-level, I would play something else.

ADnD does not need realism, it is a fantasy game, and fun should be the priority of any DM. Some authors however seem to confuse consistency and realism. Consistency means that if a character shoots an arrow in one instance and then another arrow and the context remains the same then both arrows should do the same range of damage.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 655 by Jiriki13

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Message 667 of 6024 Reply

Higher level players, Re: Don't get me w mharelick
(...) 6/19/99 7:21 am
In my games there are two ways that a character can become higher level. He/she can start out that way if I want to run a particular scenario or accomplish a task in my campaign.

The other way is that the players can earn experience points from some lower level. Now in the case of earning experience points, this means that they are performing tasks and living within the context of the World. As they move up in level they also as subplots create enemies and allies. These enemies / allies may already be higher level then they are or they may be increasing in level as they are.

Therefore there are always challenges for them to deal with.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 644 by Umbratikus

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Message 668 of 6028 Reply

Re: critical hits and fumbles charts mharelick
6/19/99 7:37 am
Here is a summary of how we handle crits and fumbles in my game.

A critical hit occurs when the top face of the d20 is a 20 exactly. Therefore if a character rolls a 19 and his bonuses cause the to-hit number to be a 20 is not a critical.

When that occurs, the player rolls a d20 and a d10. For the d20, the following is applied:
1-10: Double Damage
11-19: Triple Damage
20: Quadruple Damage

For the d10 I apply the roll to something I call my Non-fatal critical table. This includes entries like stun target for a certain amount of time, destroy his armor, cut off body parts, scarification, etc.

There is a possibility to cut off the target's head but there is a 2% chance of that happening.

When it comes to weak players I take it easy on the damage. My purpose is not to kill players but to give them a hard time. While that is not fair to the monsters, I don't care about the monsters. I care about everyone having fun.

As for fumbles, I have one table for missiles and another table for melee weapons. It boils down to break weapon, throw weapon, hit self.

A fumble is when a combatant rolls a 1 exactly
(before modifiers) on a d20.
I have found that players get upset at the DM when there is a fumble rule called "Hit Friend" because it punishes other players for the PC's fumble. I don't consider it punishment but other players do so I have omitted it from my current fumble table.

Matthew

This Is a Reply to: Msg 592 by VolkamGreatforge

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Message 669 of 6028 Reply

Re: 0 level adventure ideas needed... Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 6/19/99 9:50 am
First, I asked the player if he thought it would be cool to start as a squire and roleplay getting his paladinhood. Second, I think it's kind of cool to roleplay attaining something as grand as being knighted and gaining the blessing of your chosen deity to combat evil in his/her name as a holy warrior. In my opinion, this is far more rewarding than just starting with all of the powers granted to paladins. I have played a cavalier and a paladin that both had to start as squires at -1500xp with no abilities and those were some of my favorite characters even though the neither of them made it to 5th level. I think that you gain a real feel for the character when you have to earn the privilege to granted those powers by the deity. Paladins, in my campaign world, are very special characters and far and few between and I just like to have the player that chooses to play such a character to feel that his paladin is just not another holy warrior. Besides, it makes for good role playing opportunities when the PC isn't powerful enough to run over most low level monsters. A kobold could beat up a squire if the dice were in his favor.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 666 by mharelick

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Message 670 of 6028 Reply

Re: 0 level adventure ideas Postmodern1
(M/Mpls MN) 6/19/99 4:23 pm
OK, this is the third time I have tried to post this, so here goes:
Before this 0 level stuff gets beat too bad, I wanted to throw out a couple ideas. Coming up from -1500 would not be _too_ difficult if you made sure to use all the options you have available. For example:
- NW proficencies should be big. Exp for leaning, successfully using or getting better at a NWP. Also, situational exp, such as using dancing or ettiquite at the correct times and doing well. These may determine of the PC gets a chance to become a paladin or not.
- Combat does not have to be drunken brawling or killing the all-too-common kobold. Perhaps the squire is entrusted with one of his knight's prized posessions (weapon, heirloom or his lady's scarf) and evil-doers, theives or rivals "relieve" the squire of it. Tracking down and besting the bandits before the knight returns could be an exciting scenario with an unforgiving time deadline.
- Researching the learned, intellectual side of paladinhood would be interesting both for DM and PC. Great role playing could come from reciting ancient praises to the High Priest's diety to curry favor in the church or perhaps winning the affections of a lady-in-waiting by scribing a poem for her in the style of her favorite Elven bard.
- The squire PC could be asked/forced to take the place of a dishonored/ill/wounded/slain knight in a variety of circumstances (as was part of their historical duty). Imagine a duel before the court in the place of your incapcatated leige or a nerve-wracking first joust to reclaim the honor of your tragically slain lord. What possibilities!

I'm trying not to ramble but the chance to run a dedicated role player on some of these scenarois is a DM's dream come true. Talk about the definition of heroic role playing!!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 669 by Jiriki13

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Message 671 of 6028 Reply

Re: realism actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/19/99 5:19 pm
That's why I don't suggest squireship. It's a class that almost has to be played realistically. If it weren't, then what would be the purpose of squireship? Isn't the squire's purpose to serve the king and his church, satisfying them so they'll reward you with Paladinship? Sounds like work, don't it? Why not just start out as a 1st level Paladin?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 665 by Birdbone

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Message 672 of 6028 Reply

Squire Freetime actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/19/99 5:40 pm
In the squire's day-to-day chores, where does he/she have all this free time to fight kobolds, track down thieves, romance, etc? A Paladin's training involves dedication to the point of insanity. Day to day routines aren't like most. A squire doesn't have time to worry over such trivial tasks as those before mentioned.Don't get me wrong, I'm in the game for fun, too. I just argue the squire class altogether. There are some experimental classes like that that makes role-playing more like work. That's why I discourage things like Lawful Good, Chaotic Evil, Squires, War Dog pets, Full-Plate Armor, and the like. RPG's have to be fun, but some realism is essential for good play. Where is the challenge if ANYTHING is possible.


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Message 673 of 6028 Reply

Re: critical hits and fumbles charts actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/19/99 5:44 pm
I haen't been following these postings, but when I one, I thought of something:

Not to sound argumentative, but isn't that GURPS? If you need more ideas on subjects like that, you should pick up a copy of it.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 668 by mharelick

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Message 674 of 6028 Reply

Game realism Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/21/99 10:07 am
I think realism can and will vary from game to game. I have played in AD&D campaigns that have been "high-fantasy" where magic ruled and dragons were around every corner (actually a flying dragon, at least as depicted in the AD&D game, is aerodynamically impossible), and I have played in campaigns that were much more realistic. All of these were fun, only different.

I am currently working on an AD&D campain based on Arturian England, which will be very historically based and magic will be very scarce. Daily life will be based on my research of dialy life in the Dark Ages after Romans left. Sure there will be concessions made for the AD&D game, and for Arthurian legend, but everything will still fall in flavor of the setting. In this game, realism will be very high, and historical accuracy for the period will be strived for.

I have played with some players who would hate this type of play. The players I have now can't wait for me to finish work on the campaign so that we can begin playing in it.

I think the concept of 0-Level PC's is an interesting one. Gygax played around with it a few years ago before he was "ousted" from TSR. Another class which would be fun to play at 0-level would be the mage.

The 0-Level idea is one more for committed role players, and not for the average gamer. True role player would relish the idea of playing such a character. Although I have never played or DMed a 0-Level character, I find the idea intriguing and quite playable.


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Message 675 of 6024 Reply

Re: Game realism Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/21/99 11:39 am
I think the basis for starting at lavel 1 as opposed to level 0 is that to survive to near adult hood 12 or 13 years old you would have already just by growing up in very (putting it mildly) adverse conditions survival was not a given back then and certain skills and abilities would naturally be acrrued by every one during childhool ie fire building a basic knowledge of herbs (at least as food stuffs) hunting (either game or less typical game in the case of oliver twist) when a player chooses his class it is assumed that the apprenticship is in the past if you choose to play a squire your game night should be filled with cleaning the knights armor toting the knights weapons cleaning up after his horse etc. not very romantic but then neither were knights (I imagine that today knights would be called viscious sociopaths or in the case of paladins and other religious nuts...zealots) I don't use paladins personaly as I (as I have stated before) have problems with christianity and the whole Holy Warrior claptrap I would imagine in some scenarios playing a squire would be ok and if the player is into it sure you can start out completely enfeebled but I would certainly be reluctant to implement a squire system on any thing other than a specific case basis.
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 674 by Umbratikus

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Message 676 of 6028 Reply

Chat Availablity Times Etc... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/21/99 11:52 am
Ok almost every one has sent me something regarding chat times and all thanks for the feedback I have gone over the returns and it seems that Thursday from 8 - 10 pm est would be the best time to try to set up a chat as we will be able to get the folks from the west coast before us yankees have to be in bed there are a variety of folks who can chat during the day on week days I will go through and see if I can figure a common time for those folks if there is any interest lemme know
Pictii

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Message 677 of 6028 Reply

Re: Chat Availablity Times Etc... Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 6/21/99 6:48 pm
Argh! with my schedule being what it is I MIGHT be able eo chat every other weekend or around midnight/01:00 DST

This Is a Reply to: Msg 676 by Pictii

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Message 678 of 6024 Reply

A moment of weakness Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 6/21/99 6:55 pm
I was in one of the local bookstores this evening (looking to see if there were any Discworld novels I had missed) when I came across the 25th anniversary edition module Return to the Keep on the Borderlands. In a moment of weakness, I purchased it. Just glancing through it some things look hauntingly familiar. The map on the inside cover is about 500 times bettter than the original (it is in more than one color). I will read through it and let you know what I thought of it. It sure is thicker than the original.


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Message 679 of 6028 Reply

Re: 0 level adventure ideas needed... fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 6/21/99 10:37 pm
Your scenario's not bad, but I would change one thing (or attempt to). Actually the change is upto the player. Instead of the squire saving the day, he should learn the differance between "fight" or "flight". If the adversary has already killed the night he was squired to, it may be in his best intrest to escape. By escaping he can now warn the "brother-hood"/order of the danger that exists. This could provide materail for several adventures and give the PC an "ARCH-NEMISIS" that is behind almost every "bad" thing that happens to him.

Food for Thought!

The Blind Sage


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Message 680 of 6028 Reply

Chat Times actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/22/99 6:06 am
I must've missed the postings about upcoming chats, But I sure am glad to hear of one. I'll be there(as long as it's not this week- I cannibalized my computer to build my new one and it won't be done til the end of this week). 8-10 EST sounds great.


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Message 681 of 6028 Reply

Re: Chat Times Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/22/99 10:34 am
There were no postings regarding chats. I had sent a club wide e-mail, just prior to your joining. The replies from the mailer had just finished coming to me. I went through them and posted what seems to be the best time, for the most people (appologies to danduin) I would like to try to make the chats weekly. However I think that would be wildly optomistic, as we are all evidently doing more than we have time for already.
Pictii americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 680 by actinfoolish

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Message 682 of 6028 Reply

Software assistance mharelick
6/22/99 2:04 pm
Hi:

What software do people use to run or manage their campaigns?


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Message 683 of 6028 Reply

Re: Software assistance SCA_Bard
6/22/99 2:31 pm
This will sound dumb...

I use MS Word, although any word processor would do. Every time I develop an adventure, I write up pertinent NPCs and their stats, draw some simple maps and write down what's in each room. I'll also write down any random or planned encounters.

Sometimes, I use TSR's D&D software for encounter or treasure generation, but I usually just copy that info over to the Word doc.

I save the file with a name that will help me remember it (the town it's in, or the theme of the adventure if several occur in the same city). Eg: Academy of the Mystic Arts Maps, Clearwater Adventure.

Then, if I want an NPC villain from Clearwater to follow the PCs to the next town, I cut and paste the NPC into the document with my notes for that adventure. I print out the notes for an instant module.

Makes referencing old stuff easier, too. I save the print-outs in a binder in the order which the PCs encountered them.

I also used to try and keep a campaign calendar, noting who did what when. That was helpful, but I forgot to keep it up.

More recently, I've been pressed for time and have tried keeping stuff in my head or on scraps of paper. It works, but I think things went more smoothly when I did the computer prep work, if for no other reason than it meant that I was thinking about the adventure well in advance.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 682 by mharelick

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Message 684 of 6024 Reply

Re: Software assistance Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/22/99 3:09 pm
I primarily use Core Rules 2.0 for record keeping, and some mapping and Microsoft Word. To a lesser extent, I use Microsoft Excel, Publisher, and Paintbrush.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 682 by mharelick

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Message 685 of 6028 Reply

Re: Chat Times Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 6/22/99 3:47 pm
No reason to apologize. Incidentally, I DO have ICQ (381513) and I am almost always willing to chat when I am online (mostly before 15:00 and after 0:00 on weekdays) Every other weekend I am forced into indentured servitude but I do bring a PC here that I can get to the outside world unfettered by any firewalls.

So in short, (too late), if ya see me online, say hi.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 681 by Pictii

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Message 686 of 6028 Reply

Re: Software assistance Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/22/99 8:03 pm
I am using MS word and Excel with a smattering of Fractal V for my DM shenanigans.
Pictii Americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 682 by mharelick

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Message 687 of 6024 Reply

Re: * * * New Topic * * * wwillie2
(M/Worcester,MA) 6/23/99 12:36 am
Why, yes, i have played in an MDC game before. i must say that it is quite fun, but gets rather confusing. and somehow, it always seemed like we'd add on new fronts to the whole game. i think it started as two completely independent games but ended up as 4 games plus a lot of stuff i had to keep track of that was going on outside of the games. i think the two most difficult parts to it all are coordinating the time lines to all the games and finding enough time to get together and actually play.
anyone else?

--Ni'Ad ... the Gamester

This Is a Reply to: Msg 650 by fendicaf

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Message 688 of 6028 Reply

Hey All spellmaster15
(15/M/Richland, PA) 6/23/99 4:45 am
Hey, this is Spellmaster15 here. I don't post many messages, so i hope you all read this. I think that the idea of setting up chat times is awesome. I have my own club(but not many members) and i made it so that I and other DMs could talk about the adventures we create and design, and exchange ideas, so that others might not have to go through the time consuming task of doing so(namely the newer ones) because I, for one know that i enjoy creating my own adventures, i have never used a module or other pre-built adventure. Right now i am in the longest one yet, It has taken over two years now, and they're not even in sight of the end. so if any of you would like to know more about it, e-mail me. I think that we DMs should talk and get together more, it would benefit us all to do so. this is probably my favorite DM club because of all the messages that get posted, we are talking more that any other club I know of. i would love to talk to you all and, if you live nearby, actually meet. we could have very interesting conversations, and perhaps combine our groups and make an even bigger game once in a while.
My e-mail address is Spellmaster15@yahoo.com for those of you who would like to know about the current adventure i am working on with my players. it is a very fun and very hard adventure, i do not advise it for characters of level lower that 8. but if you would like to know about it, e-mail me.

Thanks all who read this very long message
Long Live Gaming!
Spellmaster15


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Message 689 of 6028 Reply

Re: Hey All Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/23/99 10:34 am
I am glad that the idea of chats seems to have been greeted with enthusiasm good. I am currently trying to retool a campaign I had designed the campaign with a warrior heavy party in mind and in typical player fashion there are no warriors tricks and traps and puzzels must take the place of encounters (for the most part) (Don't get your hopes up yet matt) this is alien to me and I hope it goes well another new dimension to the game (for me)
Pictii Americanus

This Is a Reply to: Msg 688 by spellmaster15

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Message 690 of 6025 Reply

Re: * * * New Topic * * * SCA_Bard
6/23/99 11:12 am
We have a large gaming group, and sometimes the regular GM and I co-GM, often splitting the group up for some more character-specific adventures.

Our different abilities are complementary - he plans great, exciting combats and I play with the PCs' minds.

We just ran one where the party seemed to be on two separate adventures: a rescue mission and a hunt-down-the-villian. 'Cept the rescue was a set-up, and at the end of the session, one half of the party is looking at their friends helping the baddie escape, all unwittingly.

Keeping the adventures in separate rooms with separate GMs kept any out of character suspicions down, so the characters had fewer of those "hunches" they seem to get when they notice all of the miniatures hiding behind the GM screen. They were totally surprised and the resulting role-play was fantastic. I don't think the effect would have been the same if they had seen just me hopping back and forth...they would have started to put the pieces together and the effect would have been ruined.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 687 by wwillie2

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Message 691 of 6025 Reply

Re: Hey All wwillie2
(M/Worcester,MA) 6/23/99 3:45 pm
Just a small comment to Pictii about his campaign. You may not enitrely need to replace encounters with tricks and traps. I have two suggestions at this time. One is to leave many of the encounters in there and let them overpower the players. Too many players believe they are invincible and never need to flee. But attempting to fight and fleeing when realizing the oponent is too much is worthy of great exp. My other suggestion has to do with encounters that can either be a trick or a treat. If the party messes up they may need to fight off the encounter. If the yplay their cards right they could pass on unscaythed and maybe some needed information as well.
Just me thoughts

Ni'Ad, Storyteller and Ventriloquist

This Is a Reply to: Msg 689 by Pictii

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Message 692 of 6025 Reply

Re: Software assistance actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/23/99 5:41 pm
Microsoft Publisher '98 w/ DeltaCAD. Both are readily available at Wal-Mart. I use MSPub 98 because it has word processing in it, which saves a step, and is compatible with virtually all publication, graphics, spreadsheet, and word processing files. I use DeltaCAD because I'm also an architect and find that that's the cheapest CAD program that's user-friendly(about $30).
With the CAD I can easily make maps and let my players view them as I see fit through mail-merge in MS Pub. I can even make forms for the players to fill out and send back with weapons on hand, spells memorized, etc. These combinations make the campaign run like clockwork.
I don't currently have any AD&D software, only because I don't exactly go strictly by-the-book. I'm afraid that those types of software may be too restricting to me.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 686 by Pictii

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Message 693 of 6025 Reply

Encounters, Tricks, and Traps Zersch
(26/M/Cape Cod, Ma) 6/23/99 8:43 pm
I just wanted to add to Wwillie2's comment. It is my experience, that encounters can happen too many times, and tricks and traps are good substitutes. But they, as encounters, can become boring as well. I like to use both. Have the party face an encounter, but with something like a sphinx, a riddling dragon, or a ghost. Answering questions and/or riddles can be more fun than bloodshed, and it can be tied to a campaign as part of it, or if it's just something you want to throw in, go for it. Providing aid to wounded dragons and such can gain the PC's a major ally for at least one encounter, when out numbered or out forced (but we as DM's would never think of doing something like that to our players, now would we? *Evil DM grin*). Aid to a wounded creature, or answering riddles or questions correctly might yield what every player wants, experience, and sometimes more than killing would provide. In my opinion. This works really well with Lawful types, such as evil dragons. Bound by one service, and you have a recurring NPC, and the players get a recurring nightmare. And remember that recurring NPC's don't have to big and powerful and scary looking. In my Shadowrun game, my main recurring villain was an accountant that worked for the Yakuza. Sounds silly but he beat, eluded and frustrated my players for over three years. Sufficed to say, when caught he met a gruesome end, but it was worth it for everything he put them through.


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Message 694 of 6028 Reply

Looking for DMs webnc
6/23/99 11:34 pm
Live AD&D Games Club
(http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/liveaddgames)
is set up to find Players and DMs to play games online. We are currently looking for players and DMs who want to play. Please join the club and send times you can play to us at webnc@yahoo.com so we can set up the schedule.


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Message 695 of 6028 Reply

DMing dilemma... Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 6/24/99 8:34 am
I DM a group and one of the players in my group also DMs' and I play. Well, the problem is that he is getting frustrated with DMing because he has had so many deaths in an effort to get some of the newer players to our group ready to run through the giant series. Currently in his campaign there is only four characters and two of them are being played by me. He has been running some of the newer players with their lower level characters on the "Mere of Dead Men" series from Dungeon Mag. There are four, I think, in the series and the group has only made it to the second one and there has been two deaths in the first adventure. These were due to players stupidity and greed. The second adventure the group had a 5th level priestess, a 4/4 specialty priestess/mage from P&P, a 3rd level druid, and a 3rd level firbolg fighter. I'm not sure if this group was just ill equipped or what, but everyone ended up dead except for the druid. She made a hasty retrest when things were going bad. The enemies in the adventure were a group of dopplegangers and some fighter guards (4th level fighters), I think. The final encounter was with a fledling Nabassu tanar'ri. He killed us with his death gaze (turns you into a ghast or ghoul). Know I think that the adventure was tough, but I think that we could've defeated the tanar'ri, because the giant has a +2 two-handed sword and the air priestess hit it with a lance of disruption for nearly full damage. The mistake was because the specialty priestess/mage and the giant jumped into a pool of water to find a hasty retreat exit, instead of attacking or helping defeat the tanar'ri in some way.
My friend that was DMing got frustrated due to the high death toll in his campaign since the new players have arrived, I think that the adventure was defeatable by our party and a couple of key characters didn't pull their weight and do what they should have done in the fight with the tanar'ri. By the way, the specialty priestess/mage didn't have her mage spellbook because she decided to go away from the group and ended up unconscious with a doppleganger standing above her, her spellbook is no longer in her possession. This was also the players fault though. I think my friend is being too hard on himself, but that's me. Any opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Dave

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Message 696 of 6028 Reply

Re: DMing dilemma... Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/24/99 9:05 am
First of all, keep in mind that just because you are running published modules and adventures, doesn't mean that you have to play them exactly as written. If some of the encounters are too much for the players to handle, modify them, or skip them altogether as long as they aren't integral to the plot. Just because a module says for 4-6 characters of 5-7th level, doesn't always mean that 4-6 characters of 5th-7th level will make it through okay. Sometimes you might even have to modify encounters on the spot, because of the party's hp level, etc.

Secondly, it is okay for the DM to pull some punches now and again. This is a lot easier if the DM rolls his dice in private (behind a screen or something), but even if dice are rolled in the open, the DM can lower monster AC or hp, modify the results of a failed save, etc.

Thirdly, there is no accounting for stupid players (or for momentary lapses of judgement). In AD&D, a fool and his PC are soon parted. This is just part of the game. Smart play is as important as combat strength.

The trick is knowing your players and knowing their playing style. Design or modify adventures to match your players and you should be okay. It just sounds to me like the DM is throwing more at the players than they can handle, regardless of what their character sheets say.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 695 by Jiriki13

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Message 697 of 6025 Reply

Re: Looking for DMs mharelick
6/24/99 7:54 pm
I love how you call a online game "live" A "live" game is with your buds around a table.

Matthew

This Is a Reply to: Msg 694 by webnc

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Message 698 of 6028 Reply

live game Birdbone
(M/Washington) 6/24/99 8:00 pm
What? Playing online is live, not e-mail games but chat.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 697 by mharelick

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Message 699 of 6028 Reply

Re: DMing dilemma... mharelick
6/24/99 8:00 pm
This scenario (the player / DM relationship) needs some more description.

How experienced are the players whose characters are getting killed?

How experienced is the DM?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 696 by Umbratikus

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Message 700 of 6028 Reply

Re: Software assistance mharelick
6/24/99 8:04 pm
What format is the files from Core Rules 2.0 in?
Is it HTML or is it something like Word for Windows .doc format?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 684 by Umbratikus

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Message 701 of 6028 Reply

Re: DMing dilemma...-Stupid is as stupid actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/24/99 8:16 pm
Sounds like the DM may not have known his party well enough, but that'll come with time. Every DM kills a couple greenhorns now and then.

My suggestion would not be to pull punches. The players will eventually play the DM's game when they come around. That's one of those little ways the DM can control the player's minds.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 695 by Jiriki13

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Message 702 of 6028 Reply

Re: DMing dilemma...-Stupid is as stupid mharelick
6/24/99 11:11 pm
I have to agree. If players are stupid they deserve to die. However if they are trully outgunned, the DM should pull punches. A good DM knows when to pull punches or when to let the stupid die. See "Stupid Player Tricks" message.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 701 by actinfoolish

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Message 703 of 6028 Reply

Stupid Player Tricks mharelick
6/24/99 11:13 pm
Some things that players do as individuals or groups that warrants not giving them any chances:

1) Separating the party.

2) Casting fireball in a small enclosed place.

3) Charging a fortress.


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Message 704 of 6028 Reply

CR2 file format Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/25/99 8:55 am
The online manuals are in .rtf format which can be opened by most word processors. There is an update/expansion disk coming out in the fall that will have them in HTML format. As it stands now, the documents you produce (character sheets, monster stats, etc.) are in a format only CR2 understands, but I understand the expansion will change that, too.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 700 by mharelick

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Message 705 of 6028 Reply

Reply to mharelick... Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 6/25/99 10:53 am
The player that has the firbolg has only been playing for a year, the druid that got away is inexperienced, the other two players(one being me) has been playing for 10+ years. The DM has been DMing for about 5 years.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 699 by mharelick

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Message 706 of 6026 Reply

Re: Reply to mharelick... mharelick
6/25/99 11:28 am
Well as a DM, my advice would be:

1) Don't let newbie players ( < 3 yrs experience) play non-standard characters, like Giants.

2) Don't throw hard stuff like T'anari at inexperienced players. Adventures that both inexperienced and experienced players alike would enjoy could include things like mysteries, maybe some political intrigue, etc. But fighting demons, devils, and other extra-planar entities involves a sophisticated knowledge of ADnD spells and tactics.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 705 by Jiriki13

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Message 707 of 6028 Reply

Re: Game assistance tools mharelick
6/25/99 11:32 am
I look forward to that. Most of the tools I use for gaming assistance are DOS based but I am trying to migrate my gaming stuff over to Linux. To that end, I have been using html for most of my documentation. General information available to the players is going to be up on my web page.

At least one of my tools, Worldmap by Jim Vassilikos lets me extract bitmaps that can be converted into a .jpg file and displayed as an image on a web page.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 704 by Umbratikus

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Message 708 of 6028 Reply

Re: Reply to mharelick... actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/25/99 3:36 pm
So when would you say they'd be ready? 5 years? 10 years? I think your logic is flawed. Not all players need play for 3 years + to experience the thrill of higher level adventuring. It's the DM's responsibility to keep the game fun and managable, whatever the circumstances.

To be truthful, it's hard for adults to keep a game going long enough to reach those higher levels. Sometimes experience has to be sacrificed to make the game enjoyable for everyone.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 706 by mharelick

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Message 709 of 6028 Reply

Re: Reply to mharelick... Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/25/99 4:12 pm
I agree. Time is not a fair measurement for how good AD&D players are. Not only do people play at different frequencies (some may play once a week, others once a month). Also, different people have different affinities for the game. I had a player once (he was an actor, BTW) and his first time playing ever blew me away. After three gaming sessions he was playing as well as veterans in my group (and not just in the role playing dept.). Some may have trouble with game mechanics, while others could pick up on it in a minute. You just can't measure game aptitude by years of play. (One guy I used to play with had 4 years under his belt and still sucked). Basic intelligence plays a role, too.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 708 by actinfoolish

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Message 710 of 6026 Reply

Re: Playing games or Game play... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/25/99 4:22 pm
When I first started playing, players advanced at way too fast a rate. Entirely my fault as an inexperianced DM. When I could no longer challenge their characters they got bored and quit (not that I think any of them would have continued playing long any way) I have to agree too many people are so concerned about level and advancing to the next one, that very little thought is actually given to what it means to advance a level. The statement that, inexperianced players should be able to enjoy high level adventuring is oxymoronic...how would one advance to a high level when one does not even know what he or she can do.
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 708 by actinfoolish

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Message 711 of 6026 Reply

Re: DMing dilemma... fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 6/25/99 5:12 pm
First off, are these NEW players or just new to your group. If they are indeed new players, then I think you maybee expecting too much from them. Start with something simple. Let them learn what a PC can do in general adding more to the adventure as you go along.

I remember my first game. Another player and I had read the basics on character creation and our DM at the time said to leave it at that to start with and learn from playing. Well I first encounter the other person and I went in with EXTRA caution and hung back when the experienced player waded right in. He got killed and we ran away, but had we helped to begin with we all would have survived.

Let the new players know that they are playing HEROIC characters that CAN do amazing feats. Heroes take chances.

However, it is not just they players fault if they are always dieing. The DM needs to adapt to his players as much as the players need to adapt to the DM.

In the case of new players to the group, let them know how you play and what is expected. With a little give 'n' take in each side you should end up with a great gaming group. If not, then maybe this group of players wasn't meant to be.!!


Sage Ramblings,
The Blind Sage of Elversult

This Is a Reply to: Msg 695 by Jiriki13

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Message 712 of 6028 Reply

Player experience mharelick
6/25/99 7:04 pm
Maybe it takes less time for players to get experienced, however the point still holds that a DM should not throw very nasty stuff at inexperienced players.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 708 by actinfoolish

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Message 713 of 6028 Reply

Looking for players in New Mexico TinkerGnome989
6/26/99 4:39 pm
Hey I am looking for AD&D players in or around NM. Please write TinkerGnome989@hotmail.com Also Please Join my club at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thenightmarelandsclub

Thanks,

Josh


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Message 714 of 6028 Reply

Just a thought Danduin_
(29/M/Somewhere in Ohio, I thin) 6/27/99 4:25 pm
Hey I was sitting here reading all these posts about MDCs and chat times and players looking for a gaming group in Whereeverville, USA etc etc.

Would anyone be interested in starting a MDC game here in our chat room? Each week, at the end of the adventure, we could pick a DM and have them run next weeks short adventure. Or, as my group has done in the past, expand upon the adventure allready started. I am not goin to go into too many details here. Thatis something we can wrok out if the need arises. By changing DMs we never have to worry about, for example, my eratic schedule. Well that is my two cents worth plus 2 cents from my neighbors pocket as well!

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Message 715 of 6026 Reply

Re: Just a thought actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/28/99 6:00 am
That does sound cool. Any other takers out there?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 714 by Danduin_

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Message 716 of 6028 Reply

Looking for players in or around South W Beard_Y
(17/M/UK) 6/28/99 9:58 am
I am looking for players in South Wales, UK.
Anyone got any ideas on how to get more?
Also can you join my club at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/guildofsalesmen1


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Message 717 of 6028 Reply

Re: Just a thought Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/28/99 11:07 am
I love the idea unfortunately my scedule is mighty erratic also but I would love to try out the aforementioned scenario

Pictii chasing my tail

This Is a Reply to: Msg 715 by actinfoolish

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Message 718 of 6028 Reply

Re: Just a thought Birdbone
(M/Washington) 6/28/99 4:44 pm
If you need players I'd play, but I wouldn't DM cause I'm pretty much a novice at it.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 714 by Danduin_

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Message 719 of 6028 Reply

Re: Just a thought fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 6/28/99 11:45 pm
I love the idea, BUT.... As has been said before, I too have an eratic sched. But my main problem is that I can only chat from my PC at work. My home PC is a dinasour.

I do, however, have 2 suggestions:

1. Play By E-Mail - I have never done a PBEM, but am more then willing to give it a go.

2. Setup a new club for on-line gaming via posts.
I have done this. In fact, one phase of my current MDC is played exclusively in the Yahoo Club and I have not even met 2 of the players. This requires the DM to check in frequently and post replies to any and all player posts that need it. This also allows for good role playing between players and lets the DM guide the plot makeing desisions as necesary.

Let me know what's decided.


The Blind Sage

This Is a Reply to: Msg 714 by Danduin_

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Message 720 of 6028 Reply

Re: Looking for players in or around Sou actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/29/99 5:59 am
You're on the right track. Post that message in all the DnD clubs you can find. Try the PBEM News at http://www.pbem.com ,too.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 716 by Beard_Y

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Message 721 of 6028 Reply

Re: Just a thought Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/29/99 12:40 pm
I am attempting to run a PBeM it seems to be going ok a bit slow for my liking but as I understand it that is mostly my fault (Knowledge what I wouldn't give for it)
I could always use a few more players...

I am a player in a PBeM run by our guild mate Danduin.
I am involved in a game that seems like they wanted to do a post to a message board type deal but most every thing there has gone on through PBeM
Chatting for me is nigh on impossible I am never on the machine at the same time twice and never on for any length of time (need structure much)

I really like the PBeM format it is almost I feel as good as playing in person with actual reality people in actual real time there are some drawbacks as with any thing involving other people

I speciffically joined the post to the mesage board game to findout about that style of play but as I stated it seems to have changed into a PBeM unless they are planning to bring us to a certain point prior to message bard posting I dunno well I really have rambled here I should go
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 719 by fendicaf

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Message 722 of 6028 Reply

Re: Just a thought dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 6/29/99 11:39 pm
Pictii, rambling is a sign of an intelligent mind.....just too much going on to keep it all straight!! :)

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 721 by Pictii

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Message 723 of 6028 Reply

Re: Just a thought actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/30/99 6:14 am
I like the idea of a chat/PBeM game. That sounds like the tabletop version of passing notes. I think I'll try that for my next campaign.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 722 by dragn_lady

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Message 724 of 6028 Reply

Re: Just a thought Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/30/99 9:24 am
Thanks good lady for the compliment. Intelligence good I thought it was an impending neurological breakdown!
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 722 by dragn_lady

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Message 725 of 6028 Reply

Re: Just a thought Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/30/99 9:27 am
Yeah actin I also like the fact that the other players are only aware of what the DM or even other PC's share it is in my opinion better than the table top note passing scenario as no players object and say whats that whats goin on here etc I have always had this problem, It takes a damn good role player not to become suspicious of the player that just passed a note to the DM.
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 723 by actinfoolish

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Message 726 of 6028 Reply

Any good play-by-post sites? urthestranger
6/30/99 12:19 pm
While we are on the topic of PBeM and PBP games... Does anyone have any suggestions for sites that host Play-by-Post games? I am looking to DM one of my campaigns online, but don't want to (CAN'T) create my own site for the game. I have run several games on dial-up bulliten board systems in the past, but this would be my first internet game. The ability to draw players from a worldwide pool has terrific potential. But I need a place to play. Any ideas?

The Stranger


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Message 727 of 6028 Reply

Get a little devious urthestranger
6/30/99 12:40 pm
Here is something you might want to throw at your next party of "know-it-all" adventurers... It's a devious little trick that has confounded a number of PC's in one of my games or another...

Place a trip wire (or similar trap trigger) somewhere where a PC can actually see it and find it, but don't make it too obvious in your description...

DM: "You see a brief glint of light out of the corner of your eye."
PC: "Turn an look in that direction."
DM: "You see nothing, but you were sure that the glint came from somewhere near the floor."
PC: "I'll kneel down and see if I see anything from that vantage point."
DM: "Ah, yes, as you do so you see an ever-so-finely spun length of twine spanning the hallway from one side to the other at about ankle-level."
PC: "A trip wire! Everybody watch out!"

Chances are the PC's will do their best to step over or otherwise bypass the trip wire to avoid setting off a nasty trap. In this case though the trick is that they actually *should* activate the trigger. There is a pivoting piece of flooring about 20 or 30 feet ahead of the party, beneath which is a deadly pit trap. If the party breaks the trip wire then spring loaded steel bolts fire into the flooring and prevent it from pivoting open, thereby allowing the party to progress without falling into the pit. If the party avoids the trip wire then the pit will open and the party will likely take some serious damage.

This works best if used in a place known for having deadly traps.

The Stranger


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Message 728 of 6028 Reply

Re: Any good play-by-post sites? Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/30/99 1:53 pm
Check out delphi.com the have a cool message board domain it even has a chat and best of all it is free
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 726 by urthestranger

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Message 729 of 6028 Reply

Re: Get a little devious Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/30/99 1:55 pm
your mean

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 727 by urthestranger

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Message 730 of 6028 Reply

Experience advice needed... Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 6/30/99 3:37 pm
My campaign just had a large scale battle where the PC's stronghold was attacked by enemy forces. One of the players has a halfling thief(merchant) that didn't actually contribute physically in the battle, but instead went way out of character and acted as a leader for a group of archer henchmen. He directed them on where to go and who to shoot at. The arcers helped out some what, but not very much. I would like some opinions on whether he should attain the same amount of experience as the rest of the group that actually participated physically with weapons or spells or both to defeat the onslaught.

Thanks,
Dave

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Message 731 of 6028 Reply

Re: Experience advice needed... actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/30/99 4:29 pm
Physical participation should not always be necessary to win the battle. If archerers are involved in the winning of the battle, no matter if their part was small, should be noted.

I, personally, would combine the experience points for the battle and divide them evenly among the group. A word of caution- don't tell the players you did that!!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 730 by Jiriki13

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Message 732 of 6028 Reply

Re: Any good play-by-post sites? fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 6/30/99 4:33 pm
I play at a "FREE-FORM" role playing site at
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/reddragonunderground

This is DMless play where the players just have fun.

If some one wants to Co-Found a club with me I will set one up. I suggest a Private club for members of this club only. This would be a place where the DM's here get to "show their stuff".

How about the DMGBardsHall

Let me know!


Fendicaf, sage and mage

This Is a Reply to: Msg 726 by urthestranger

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Message 733 of 6028 Reply

Re: Any good play-by-post sites? actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 6/30/99 4:34 pm
I know y'all are sick of hearing this- try http://www.pbem.com

They have a free service for DMs. I'm not sure of the chat part, but I know they have an email list manager which allows people to 'watch' the game without participating, manages messages to the player group, etc. You have to check it out to see all the features.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 726 by urthestranger

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Message 734 of 6028 Reply

Re: Experience advice needed... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 6/30/99 4:34 pm
I would try to determine what % of the battle was won by the direct actions of the pc, next I would do the same for indirect (such as directing fire)actions, and base whatever exp on those two figures.
I certainly would not grant him equal points as the rest of the party who obviously worked much harder to earn their points.

By the way how does a thief become an archery spotter? What sort of knowledge would he have on matters such as grand scale military action?
Or was he following instructions from other players? It sounds to me like the person playing the PC shared a little too much personal knowledge with the Character. I would imagine the ideal part for most thieves/merchants in large scale battles would be un contested avoidance; it is just too easy to get dead with no clear personal profit. Thus a very poor risk from either a theif or a merchants stand point. No?

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 730 by Jiriki13

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Message 735 of 6028 Reply

Re: Get a little devious fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 6/30/99 4:39 pm
I've used a similiar scenario where the characters must step on a certain stone(tile). When stepped on it sinks down and slow comes back up. This is used to temporarily disable a trap. When the tile comes back up the trap is automatically reset.

Fendicaf


p.s. remeber that one Dragn_Lady (hehehehe)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 727 by urthestranger

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Message 736 of 6028 Reply

Re: Experience advice needed... fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 6/30/99 4:44 pm
I have to agree with actin... Had the player found a corner and hid then give him nothing, but don't penalize him because his character isn't a mighty warrior. If he contributed in a way that he thought would actual help then give credit where credit is due.

I personally do group exp and divide amongst ALL contributers to the battle.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 730 by Jiriki13

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Message 737 of 6028 Reply

Re: Experience advice needed... Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 6/30/99 4:45 pm
Always consider two things: Degree of personal risk taken by the character and amount of participation in the desired outcome. I personally would give all the PC's equal amounts of a "group award" for winning the battle, and then give out individual awards based on the formula above.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 730 by Jiriki13

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Message 738 of 6028 Reply

Re: Get a little devious dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 6/30/99 8:34 pm
YES, Fendicaf, I remember that one well. The REAL question is, does, HoJ remember that one????

A regenerating elven paladin of Tyr.....now THAT is interesting play!!!! hahaha!!

Dragn_lady


ps....Pictii, the impending breakdown only occurs when you have a pre-pubesant daughter!!!!!!!!!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 735 by fendicaf

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Message 739 of 6028 Reply

Re: Get a little devious wwillie2
(M/Worcester,MA) 6/30/99 8:59 pm
no kidding that is interesting play... a regenerating elven paladin of Tyr. but it sure is fun! i love the part of not having to eat dinner and scaring all the locals in town. it's also really fun to see how the DM deals with him. i like bringing up new points about the character that make him think how he is going to deal with this one. so, yes, it is quite interesting

--Ni'Ad
Storyteller extrordinare

This Is a Reply to: Msg 738 by dragn_lady

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Message 740 of 6028 Reply

Re: Experience advice needed-Pictii actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 7/1/99 5:19 am
It's statements like that that made me tell the boy not tell the players. I feel like DMing is hard enough sometimes without figuring percentages of participation.

Don't get me wrong- if a particular player obviously contributed more to the conclusion of the battle, the by all means he/she deserves a better cut of the xps.

(I feel strongly about this subject because when I play I'm partial to 'Hobbit'-type halfing thieves-although non-confrontational, very effective.)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 734 by Pictii

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Message 741 of 6028 Reply

Re: Experience advice needed-Pictii Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/1/99 5:24 am
I too am fond of halflings and even more annoyying Gnomes however how much exp would you have granted Bilbo in the battle of five armies? and why? I also agree with a previous posting not every one can be a mighty warrior The theif did participate in the battle his exp should be based on his contribution and actions.
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 740 by actinfoolish

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Message 742 of 6028 Reply

Players Options Rules actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 7/1/99 5:50 am
I've been long harassed by many players to include Player's Options rules in my campaign. I've never so much as cracked the binding on one of those books since I've always felt that the newer publications by TSR are money-traps. Here comes my rambling:

As a DM, do I have to have all those handbooks for the different classes? Or are they just player guides?

When players send me a character generated under Options rules, their abiities are */*. What's that all about?

Does AD&D play change(ruleswise) under Player's Options?

I feel that the backgrounds and such are neato, but non-necessary. Any help out there?

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Message 743 of 6028 Reply

Beginners need help (Always) felsefeci
(26/M/ISTANBUL) 7/1/99 7:11 am
We, the members of the honorfull Guild, are always avaible to help whereever need. We DM's sometimes we rescue dragons,devils from the players and also we help players. And rookies are asking help. I recieved an e-mail and hereby you can check it! DM's knows always which way to treasure and which to trouble.




Hi! My name is Joe, and I just founded the AD&D Beginner's Sanctuary, a
haven for beginners. However, players (and DMs) of ALL skill levels are
more than welcome. The reason I'm e-mailing you is because I'd like you
to notify the members of your club of my club's existence. The AD&D
Beginner's Sanctuary is a place to get rules questions answered and to
find any info you might need. Who better to help with that than a DM?
So please, spread the word and join yourself.
Thanks,
Joe

Thanks to all Honor Members of the Guild.

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Message 744 of 6028 Reply

Re: Players Options Rules Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/1/99 8:57 am
The only real book you need to start playing with Player's Options rule books is the "Skills & Powers". There are some rules and abilities that change. Basically player's options just allows a character to not have to have all of the same old class abilities as every other fighter, mage, thief, cleric, etc. The warriors can now gain mastery of their chosen weapon, instead of just specialization. This happens at a higher level though, so they will have to pay and train during the campaign. Thieves don't have to have all of the normal abilities. Mages and clerics get to choose which spheres/schools they have access to. All of the classes also have many other abilities to choose from which can make each character a little different from the others of their respective classes. Each race also has the choice to choose racial abilities or they can buy a specific racial kit which has set abilities. You do not need any of those separate hand books, they are not even related to player's options. The skills & powers book has kits, alternate races, new psionics rules, traits, disadvantages, etc. Like any other supplement though, there are things that require the DM to be throughly informed about. In particular I'm talking about character ability scores. This is the */* that you are talking about. They are called subability scores and basically nothing changes, except that if you play purely skills & powers the characters will have two separate subability scores for every normal ability score. The Strength score has subability scores of Stamina & Muscle(I think stamina is the other one). Each subability score can be modified by taking one for one from each of them, to a maximum of a four point difference. Stamina is the endurance side of the Str scores and Muscle is the raw power side. Stamina covers maximum carrying capacity and Muscle covers to hit and damage bonuses. Example: A fighter has a 16 Str, but wants to have more explosive power than muscle endurance. He could bump his Muscle score up to an 18 and he would be able to roll for a percentile score and his stamina would be dropped down to a 14. This is the maximum difference allowed, although there are certain races that can buy a +1 to some subability scores. I don't allow players to adjust their subability scores, other than buying racial adjustments. The subability scores are to easy for players to abuse. What player with a fighter will choose Stamina over Muscle(hit/dmg. adj.).
One last thing is that the non-weapon prof. has base scores and are adjusted by a characters ability scores, instead of being taken at ability score value. This is just some of the things within the skills & powers book. As with anything, there is always pros and cons. Just browse over one in the store before buying and you can get a feel for what it's about. Some of the things I like, some I don't or I change them. Hope I helped.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 742 by actinfoolish

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Message 745 of 6028 Reply

PO Books, Complete Handbooks, etc. Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/1/99 9:09 am
First of all, the Players Option books are just that: Optional Rules. Do they have some good stuff in them? Yes. Are they Necessary? No.

For the most part, I feel the PO books just add more complexity to the game without much benefit to play. It is good for players who really obsess over their characters, but personally I don't like them. There are exceptions. The Psionics system in the PO books is actually simpler and more streamlined than that presented in the Complete Psionics Handbook, and there are some cool new spells, but other than that, they aren't worth the investment.

The Complete Handbooks are a different story. I think these add a great deal to the game. Some of the books are better than others (as a general rule, the latter ones are more developed). I find the Priest Handbook a great tool in helping develop specialty priests that are balanced and interesting. It is probably my favorite. All in all, if you are going to let your players use them, you better be familiar with them as well, because they do introduce some different rules. They are optional rules, however. Some of them I use, some I don't.

The kit system from the handbooks I think is a great addition to the game. Many people don't care for it, but I think it is great. However, there are worthwhile kits and there are unnecessary, superfluous kits. Some kits, like the Bounty Hunter for the thief, and the Blade for the bard, actually give the character class slightly different abilities, and is a great way to add variety to the standard classes. Other kits, like the Peasant Hero for the fighter, and the Con Man for the thief, are nothing more than substitutes for role playing. These kits can be duplicated by the standard class just by choosing the same proficiencies and role playing his character as such. Personally, I maintain a list in my House Rules document that lists the kits that I allow in my game. Those that don't add anything to the game are omitted.

The two scores for each attribute in the PO books is an additional, and I think unnecessary rule. It divides each attribute into two aspects of that attribute. Since I don't use this rule, I don't know what they are exactly, but it is like they divide Strentgh up into actual strength, and musculature, or something like that. Charisma would be divided into physical attractiveness and personality. Over all it is extra rules to bog down the game. I don't like it.

And Backgrounds are one of the most important parts of the character, if you play in an ongoing campaign. If you play more tournament style, then like you said, they are nice and can add depth to a character, but they are not essential.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 742 by actinfoolish

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Message 746 of 6028 Reply

Re: Players Options Rules Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/1/99 9:51 am
I have felt that any book published after the Deities and Demigods, back in the early 80's is a money pit. I am glad I am not just showing too much of my thrifty scottishness.

I do not use the players option rules. I claim DM's Law and do as I please. I feel the newer books (all of 2nd ed. to me) are convoluted and unnecessarily bewildering. I have never even been able to generate a character with 2nd ed. books. Why do you need to use three books to generate a character any way? Where exactly does one get the points necessary for ones proficiencies? How many different publications will I need to outfit my new character? What is a kit? If I do not have the pugilist specialization will I still be able to kick the snot out of a pixie in a bar brawl?
and a host of other frustrating things.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 742 by actinfoolish

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Message 747 of 6028 Reply

Re: Players Options Rules mharelick
7/1/99 9:58 am
I run a second edition game. My rule on handbooks are simple. I will only accept characters from
handbooks if:

1) I own the handbook AND / OR

2) Whatever character they wish to play is not out of balance, and the description can be understood
in five minutes or less of reading.

I think that the Players Options books are sort of
an unofficial third edition of ADnD. Further, the only options beyond the player's manual and the
previously mentioned handbooks are options that
I provide.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 742 by actinfoolish

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Message 748 of 6028 Reply

2nd edition was Re: Players Options Rule mharelick
7/1/99 10:01 am
As for non-weapons proficiencies, they are clearly
spelled out in a single table at the end of the
character class descriptions in the Player's Handbook. I don't have one in front of me so I
can't tell you the page. I also use the optional
rule of letting players use the number of languages allowed for their intelligence as per
the intelligence table for non-weapon proficiencies.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 746 by Pictii

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Message 749 of 6028 Reply

Improvements from 2nd edition mharelick
7/1/99 10:11 am
Since 1st edition ADnD came out, lots of option rules came out in Dragon magazine, and were published on the net. Many DM's began to incorporate some of these ideas as canon. 2nd
edition ADnD simply incorporated many of these ideas as canon rules, others were included as options.

For example, specialized magi and clerics are optional. As far as I see it , they are logical and good options since for example, a cleric for a war god should not be restricted to blunt weapons only.

In addition 1st edition is a very old game and some good ideas have come out in more modern games. One example is skills. 2nd edition incorporates a set of skills into the game. I think its a rather conservative set of skills as compared to games like Palladium Fantasy.

The point is that the basic 2nd edition rules are a great improvement over 1st edition rules, even though they cause ADnD to lose some of its simplicity. Its well worth the cost.

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Message 750 of 6028 Reply

Pictii Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/1/99 10:56 am
Although I can appreciate your purist attitude, I think you are missing something by ignoring what 2nd ed has to offer.

Personally, I think specialty priests, specialist mages, non-weapon proficiencies, and player character kits add much depth to the game, without impeding game play (once you get used to them). For those things listed above, I like the second edition rules.

P.S. WotC has put out feelers for a possible 3rd edition. I will avoid this at all costs unless:
1) it consolidates all that is good with the 2nd edition rules and eliminates that which is bad (okay?)[South Park reference].
2) it is backwards compatible
3) WotC doesn't try to break it up in 20 different volumes, or something else as an obvious and blatant attempt to maximize profit.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 749 by mharelick

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Message 751 of 6028 Reply

Re: Experience advice needed SCA_Bard
7/1/99 11:22 am
I agree that there should be XP's given out for actions other than fighting. I'm also a fan of thief characters and others who would get mauled in a slugfest.

But you mentioned that the PC went "way out of character" to lead the archers. If it was an act of courage, of the PC moving out of his comfort zone to save the day, even if he bumbled a bit, I'd give him a fair share of the XPs. The "accidental wizard" and his friends are classic roles in fiction, where our hero finds him or herself forced to act in a new role in a desperate situation.

But if it was a player who used out-of-game knowledge - that's less worthy of XPs. If your halfing merchant started commanding archers like he'd been doing it all his life, that's not good role-playing.

As a GM, try to create at least one scenario where such a PC can do something to gain XPs - maybe the attack began as a seige, and the merchant halfling had to negotiate with some blockade runners to get supplies in. Perhaps he has other connections with strings he could pull to make life difficult for the invaders. Or an assassin got into the keep...something for a thief/merchant to battle.

My 2 cents
Teleri

This Is a Reply to: Msg 741 by Pictii

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Message 752 of 6028 Reply

Re: Pictii mharelick
7/1/99 3:37 pm
I will not buy a third edition either. TSR has enough of my money already.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 750 by Umbratikus

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Message 753 of 6028 Reply

I think I'll keep my style actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 7/2/99 12:33 am
After reading the PO posts, I don't think I'm gonna run out and grab all the books. I may, however, pick up one of those Skills & Powers and maybe the couple books on Magic-Users and Clerics(just to see what they have to offer).

I don't use Psionics. I've always felt that was a severe advantage over other characters and adversaries and gets too close to god-like powers.

I might give a couple special extra advantages to the players, on request(specialized weapons, spell specialization, etc.), although I've always done that anyway.

I don't think the split ability scores sounds like such a hot idea. That complicates my simple system of GURPS-into-AD&D task rolling. What I mean there is that a lot of times I simply make the player roll against his/her ability score to complete a task that isn't addressed in the rules(or I'm too lazy to look up).

On the recent subject of out-of-character play(ie. Experience Point Advice), I've never believed in making a player act like an idiot just because his Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma dictates so. I only use those abilities for things like NPC reaction, language learning capability, complex trap decoding, spell learning, saving throws, etc.. I think the players shouldn't be penalized for picturing themself in the character. The more they're into it, the funner it is. Isn't that what it's all about? Plus, it's impossible for a player with an IQ of 150 to play stupid brute, and , likewise, it's impossible for an ignoramous to play a world leader(no real-life cuts intended!). I suppose they could if they worked hard at it, but there's that word 'work' again.

I guess I'll stop rambling for now, just had to collect my thoughts.

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Message 754 of 6028 Reply

Re: I think I'll keep my style Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/2/99 7:13 am
As for WOTC I think they have already proven their purely for profit motivation.Good for them I say it's capitolism after all. I will not support them however regardless of edition and again I just cannot get past this; I still feel the second ed books to be way too convoluted. They befuddle my attemts at garnering info from them, (it must be some sort of mental block or a fiscal one I don't know) and I feel that the format is actually more restrictive. There are more classes and sub classes. However there is a certain lack of flexibility, (once you become a mage of this sphere you cannot learn any other spells!?) Some one posted this statement before and I feel it really rings true. I think the second edition offers a greater variety however it inhibits role playing by narrowing the scope of activities that your character can do without acruing penalties. I also agree that the more a player puts into his/her character the funner(=better) the game is. However correct me if I am wrong the scenario mentioned before with the theif leading the archers, under second ed rules would not the theif incur so many penalties for operating out of character as to make his endeavors fruitless?

As for skills I guess no one was a fan of the secondary skills option in first ed (I would have to ask Mharelick but I believe I have always used them. )

All I can say for the newer stuff is that I have borrowed seeral second ed books and will bend a binding soon and try to muck my way through it again to see if there is anything there I can or would use.

I hate feeling left out. Ha ha.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 753 by actinfoolish

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Message 755 of 6028 Reply

Re: I think I'll keep my style urthestranger
7/2/99 8:45 am
I know what you mean Pictii about the 2nd Ed...

The difference between your case and mine is that I actually went out and bought most of the 2nd Ed. stuff before concluding that they were not all that significant an improvement over the 1st.
If yet a 3rd Edition were to come out and I, as a DM, were not to adopt those rules, my only fear would be that new players to my campaign who knew nothing before the 2nd or 3rd Editions might think that I was somehow cheating them. Rolls which might have "missed" in 1st edition might "hit" in 2nd or 3rd, and if I say "miss" they may cry foul.

Even if I make it clear before play begins that we will be using 1st Edition rules, it could produce some bad blood because they've already invested in later rulebooks. Perhaps I could loan such newbies my first editions, but it just sounds like a lot of hassle.

The Stranger

This Is a Reply to: Msg 754 by Pictii

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Message 756 of 6028 Reply

Re: I think I'll keep my style SCA_Bard
7/2/99 9:47 am
Pictii Wrote: "However correct me if I am wrong the scenario mentioned before with the theif leading the archers, under second ed rules would not the theif incur so many penalties for operating out of character as to make his endeavors fruitless?"

It depends on how the character has been playing his thief up until that point. The Complete Thief's Handbook actually has a Scout kit for thieves - a sort of a Robin Hood thing. Even if you don't use kits, there's nothing from preventing a thief from acting like a ranger. Maybe the character even always wanted to be a ranger, but lacked the Strength or Wisdom scores. This can make for some interesting role-play.

The problem with the archer scenario was that the GM who posted it implied that it was out of character for that *particular* thief to behave as a miliary leader. Even if a fighter character had been continously playing the PC as a loner who had never fought as part of a large unit, I'd consider docking the XPs if his role-play was so bad that he let the character begin flawlessly directing the band of archers.

He should be allowed to try and command them, certainly, but I'd expect a real role-player to maintain some of that gruffness and 'not-a-team-player' attitude that has kept him out of this line of work before. That would irrate the captain of the archers, of course, and that would set the stage for a dramatic argument, just before the battle...Hopefully, the PC and NPC would gain some mutual respect and the captain would help the less-than-tactful PC with commanding his men and they'd win the day.

But my personal GM style is very heavily on the cinematic side, with lots of drama and less fighting...I'm suggesting that this is the only way to handle such a situation.

SCA Bard

This Is a Reply to: Msg 754 by Pictii

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Message 757 of 6028 Reply

Bad points about second edition mharelick
7/2/99 9:52 am
One of the bad things I noticed about second edition, was that a whole generation of players/ DM's expected that they would be playing in one of the TSR published worlds and TSR published modules. I have noticed this particularly in new players who have come to join my game and asked "Will you be using Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk?"

My response is that "I have my own world". Then they look befuddled and get upset because they have these pre-generated characters based on these worlds. Especially distressing are the players that have bought the worlds, the supplements for the worlds, and the novels for the world and expect every DM they encounter to be running their game with this world.

I am not sure if this is because of second edition rules or because TSR changed its marketting to only attract people who spend money and not think.


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Message 758 of 6028 Reply

Re: I think I'll keep my style Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/2/99 11:37 am
In re messages 756, 757
Huzzah!
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 756 by SCA_Bard

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Message 759 of 6028 Reply

Re: I think I'll keep my style SCA_Bard
7/2/99 2:19 pm
Oops!

I wrote "But my personal GM style is very heavily on the
cinematic side, with lots of drama and less
fighting...I'm suggesting that this is the only way to
handle such a situation."

I meant that it was *not* the only way to handle it. Ouch, I sound so high and mighty....

Different group enjoy different things. Some folks love hack and slash dungeon crawls. Other folks love to GM them. Have fun with my blessings. I certainly didn't mean to say that there is One True Path to GM Enlightenment.

This has just been my day for typos...this is the second post I've had to apologize for.

SCA Bard

This Is a Reply to: Msg 756 by SCA_Bard

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Message 760 of 6029 Reply

Re: Bad points about second edition SCA_Bard
7/2/99 2:29 pm
I vote for the marketing strategy. Of the 4 GMs I interact with in the flesh, plus myself, we all use 2nd ed and we all have our own campaign worlds.

I use the Forgotten Realms Faiths and Powers supplement since it was given to me as a gift, and it saved me lots of time developing my own cosmology. Maybe that will be a goal for me later in life, but at the time, I was busy getting an engineering degree and my world was developing as the PCs explored it!

But I certainly see mharelick's point. TSR's worlds are very heavily marketed. They have full-time employees whose job it is to make their worlds seem as vibrant and accessible as possible and, of course, these worlds are always stocked next to the basic rules so they get the max exposure. I can certainly understand a newbie getting the impression that boxed sets are the only way to go - despite the text in both the PH and the DMG encouraging experimentation and suggesting exotic,non-western-European-medieval-forest settings.

I don't even want to *think* about the headaches the novels can cause...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 757 by mharelick

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Re: Bad points about second edition Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 7/2/99 7:54 pm
While marketing is indeed a powerful force, I think a lot of this phenomenon is simply the fact that TSR took the time to develop these worlds. Consider what would happen if TSR were composed entirely of non-profit-oriented altruists (please don't anyone imply that I'm somehow suggesting this to be the case) but they wanted to create very detailed worlds as a supplement. While the packaging might be considerably different (big hardbound tomes with binding that can withstand the test of time, perhaps) the end result would surely be the same: lots of newbie (and not so newbie) players clamouring for the premade world.
The trouble is one that will be eternal. Most people who are familiar with an rpg will at least have heard of premade worlds associated with that RPG. For AD&D it's Krynn and Greyhawk and so forth. For D&D it's Mystara. Star Frontiers has the Frontier and Traveller the Imperium. Amber has, well, Amber, and a host of other RPG's like Shadowrun, Star Wars, and Battletech have so much to do with the worlds they are built around that it's orders more difficult to disassociate the two.
So a DM with his own world will always have to put its anonymity up against the popularity of existing worlds, regardless of the profit motivation behind such things.
What to do about it? Refuse! Tell your potential players to pack up their premade characters and prefab conceptions about the cosmos in a big box with all those world supplements and add some mothballs for good measure. No DM who's ever gone through the trouble of making up their own world should have to consider for even a moment giving into such pressure. If a whole mess of players is really into one of those worlds, they can pick a DM from their own number and run such a campaign, but they certainly don't have to thrust it upon you.
The corollary to this is the question of different editions. If you've spent years learning the first edition, then that's the game you run, regardless of what the players are familiar with. The same is true in reverse. If your players have never cracked open the second edition, but that's all you're familiar with, then that's what the game is going to be. Players who quibble about different numbers in the slots can look forward to the wonderful chance to be educated by you about what role-playing truly means. Run a good enough game, regardless of the edition number, and there will be no bad blood, period.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 760 by SCA_Bard

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Message 762 of 6029 Reply

Re: Bad points about second edition fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 7/2/99 8:42 pm
HUZZA!!!

I think that about somes it up!!!!!!!!!!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 761 by Ellowan

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Message 763 of 6029 Reply

Re: Bad points about second edition actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 7/3/99 6:08 am
GIT IT, BOY!!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 761 by Ellowan

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Message 764 of 6029 Reply

I need advice on tricks and traps... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/4/99 9:06 am
I was wondering if people would mind sharing some of their favorite nasties that is the purpose of the club our corporate loyalties aside of course
Pictii


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Message 765 of 6029 Reply

Re: I need advice on tricks and traps... Beard_Y
(17/M/Bristol, UK) 7/5/99 6:15 am
I personally stick with the very basic traps that don't do much damage to first level charecters, the most advaced member of anu party to enter any of my dungeons was only a second level theif. I generally use only a blade or hidden monster trap

This Is a Reply to: Msg 764 by Pictii

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Message 766 of 6029 Reply

Is any one intrested in Dming a game? Beard_Y
(17/M/Bristol, UK) 7/5/99 7:33 am
So that some of my retainer ccharecters and first level charecters can gain XP, post replies here


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Message 767 of 6029 Reply

Re: Is any one intrested in Dming a game mharelick
7/5/99 9:48 am
What do you mean retainer characters and 1st level xp's ?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 766 by Beard_Y

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Message 768 of 6028 Reply

Re: Is any one intrested in Dming a game Beard_Y
(17/M/Bristol, UK) 7/5/99 10:46 am
Yes I do, most of the retainers in my game are 1st level xp and I have to get them expeience some how, so putting them into another DMs dungeon as 1st level xp charecters seems a good method

This Is a Reply to: Msg 767 by mharelick

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Message 769 of 6029 Reply

Re: Is any one intrested in Dming a game Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/5/99 12:23 pm
Often in the long cold winters here in the north east. I will be inclined to "run a game". I put it in quotes because I am the only player. I take several first level characters (Newly created NPC's, are these retainers?) and run them on an adventure. There are complete rules for solo play in the first ed DM guide. Despite my alacrity for Kooky behavior, this is not the way I generally people a game. Most of the NPC's being rather one dimensional with a few notable exceptions. Of course during actual games (with real live other players) some of the "generic" NPC's have become great characters. I am really uncertain what your posts are refering too.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 768 by Beard_Y

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Message 770 of 6029 Reply

Re: Is any one intrested in Dming a game mharelick
7/5/99 8:59 pm
I am really beginning to miss those long cold winters in the north east.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 769 by Pictii

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Message 771 of 6029 Reply

Re: Is any one intrested in Dming a game Beard_Y
(17/M/Bristol, UK) 7/6/99 5:19 am
Retainers, according to my copy of the DMs guide are any NPCs hired by the PCs to join them in their adventure, the retainers I have are all either Human Magic-Users, Human Fighters, Human Theifs, Human Clerics, Dwarven Fighters, Elven Magic-User/Fighters or Halfling Fighters

This Is a Reply to: Msg 769 by Pictii

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Message 772 of 6029 Reply

Re: Is any one intrested in Dming a game mharelick
7/6/99 8:45 am
Ah, ok. But as a DM you can give them whatever level you want, you don't have to make them work their way up to any kind of level.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 771 by Beard_Y

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Message 773 of 6028 Reply

Pictii Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/6/99 8:52 am
I disagree with you to a certain point. I have only played second edition rules, I started playing just about the time that the second edition books were coming out. I have, however, looked at some of the first edition books from the early to mid eighties and I thought that those books were too vague. Not to mention that some of the character classes were way over balanced compared to the normal classes(i.e. the cavalier and first edition barbarian). I just think that the second edition books allow you to flush out a character more throughly and allows for one fighter to have some different abilities from another fighter and so on. The class handbook series(kits in particular) accomplishes this task. I do believe that some of these books are useless, for the most part. The wizard's and priest's books kind of suck. I will say that a few of the kits are unbalancing or not really for PC play. I believe that the P.O. Spells & Magic rule book helps create better wizards and priests.

Just my thoughts.
Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 746 by Pictii

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Message 774 of 6029 Reply

Re: I need advice on tricks and traps... SCA_Bard
7/6/99 9:47 am
My favorite is to trick their heads. I once set up two sets of PCs, both double agents, each thinking the other is *really* the enemy when they're all actually on the same side...only one player knew the actual score (ooc) and she kept her mouth shut until the other side figured it out. It was priceless.

The mini-adventure where a white necromage PC was enlisted to help rescue a fellow white from the evil "Inquisitors" then aid in a gating ceremony that needed a special "balm"...was a set-up and she was actually aiding a band of blood mages. To make matters worse, I was retiring a PC at the time, so guess where the "balm" came from...

As far as everyday traps go, my most original was a trapped spellbook. This is the setup: PCs enter the mage's room. On the far wall, set upon a lush Turkish-style rug embellished with silver threads, is a stand with a spellbook on it. The stand has a drawer. Behind the stand is a silver plate, almost like a mirror, which is slightly scratched. If the PCs open the drawer, they find a silver rod about a foot long.

Behind the silver plate is a silver wire which runs through the wall to ground. The PCs must drop the silver rod onto the *charged* spellbook so that one end touches the silver plate and the other contacts the spellbook. Otherwise, when they touch it, the current will run through them into the silver threads of the rug, then to ground. For the 1st level characters I threw this at, I just used a Shocking Grasp as the juice...the mage they had defeated was low level, but I thought he should have a nifty trap anyway. A high-level mage could charge the thing with the damage from a lightening bolt.

This works well with PCs who know just enough physics so that they'll berate themselves afterwards for not knowing better.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 765 by Beard_Y

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Message 775 of 6029 Reply

2nd Edition Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/6/99 10:11 am
I have to agree with Jiriki. I don't see where the 2nd ed. limits what characters can do, or penalizes them any more than the 1st ed. did. I grew up on the 1st ed. and loved it, but I also love the second edition because, to me, it just adds more depth and more fun to the 1st edition rules. Note that Non-Weapon proficiencies were first introduced in the 1st edition books (Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and Wilderness Survival Guide) and the kits were a great answer to the subclasses that were beginning to develop (cavalier, barbarian, thief-acrobat).
In a nutshell, the second edition simply provides a method of making characters different from each other. Granted, I think that they went too far with the PO books (just as many 1st ed hounds think they went too far with the Survival Guides), but the core rules and the kit system in the "Complete Handbooks" is a wonderful addition to the game. It could be that I am very character focused, too. I believe that the characters make the game. I don't see where the 2nd edition limits characters at all, it enhances them while maintaining game balance.

Yes Specialist mages cannot cast spells from the shool excactly opposite of theirs, but they start with more spells. You can also choose to be a generic mage, and nothing changes from 1st ed. Same with specialty priests. I personally thing that specialty priests was the best improvement of them all. What color and depth!

I also haven't had the published game world problem. In fact, I had the opposite experience. Back when I played first ed., every new player assumed that we were playing Greyhawk. That was okay, because we were. It wasn't until about two years prior to the release of the 2nd ed. that I was running my own gameworld. I do use the Planescape world (modified slightly) for my characters' forays into the planes, but other than that, it is strictly home-made.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 773 by Jiriki13

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Message 776 of 6029 Reply

Re: 2nd Edition Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/6/99 11:13 am
I as I have stated numerous times am at a loss when it comes to second ed. I have never even been able to completly roll up a character (maybe the fellow I borrowed the books from is missing the final tome neccessary for character creation. I don't know it just seems way too confusing to me. I am glad I started playing when I did else wise it is not likely that I would be an enthusiast today. The barbarian and cavalier silliness are more of a 1.5 edition and came out much later than true first ed. they were supplementals in Dragon I believe (some one who is hipper than I can verify). I am pretty certain the 2nd ed rules are more restrictive the DM i borrowed the 2nd ed. books from (not very experianced) was stomping all over my last nerve. We were trying to create a character for my wife, it seemed every thing she wanted to do was in contrast to the description this fellow saw in his interpertation of the character class. It was to the point, that I just said "look she does not really even know how to play, if you are gonna restrict her character thusly, you should just assign the spells she can have instead of making her try to guess what she can and cannot do." I don't know if it was just him but, I have not been able to make any more sense of the rules either. Next...the same "game session" (four hours of trying to get a playable character)I wanted to make a bard, I had the numbers for either game what came next is beyond me. We ran in circles I could do this but not that or I could do that but not this all in all it was so frustrating that I just made a plain human fighter (this nearly caused my eyes to pop straight from my head)... "well now that you have your fighter what sort of weapon specialization do you want?" "What, what are you talking about?" "specialization proficiencies..." "I still don't know what you mean." "You pick a specialization..." "Ok how about longsword..." "First level characters cant choose only one weapon thats mastery..." "What what the arrrgh can we play nintendo?"
To me that is just too convoluted and too many volumes are neccessary to play a game. As I said it may have just been him but I have been able to do nothing better with the second ed. books I borrowed from him. That was the last time we even tried to play, now my wife wants absolutely nothing to do with the game. I feel it is just too confusing and restictive.
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 775 by Umbratikus

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Message 777 of 6028 Reply

Pictii Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/6/99 1:31 pm
It is unfortunate that you had such a poor introduction to the 2nd ed. It is obvious to me that was the person who introduced you, and not the game itself.

I feel the 2nd ed. actually streamlined the character creation process. Chaper 1 of the Player's Handbook (and that is the only tome you need unless you wanted a character kit) actually walks you through step by step: Roll scores, select race, select class, (insert select kit if you so desire), select alignment, select weapon and non weapon proficiencies, equip. Viola, you now have a second edition character.

A fighter character may, if he so desires, put two of his alloted weapon proficiencies into one weapon. "Specializing" in this one weapon gives the fighter a "to hit" and "damage" bonus, but it is totally a player's option. It also gives the DM an answer to the question "why should I be a plain fighter, when I could be a ranger or a paladin (scores notwithstanding)?"

I think your friend complicated matters. If you were to look at the character creation method in the 1st ed. and the 2nd ed. purely objectively (if that is possible), I think that you would find that the 2nd ed. is actually easier to understand. It just gives you a few more options, and these options aren't restrictions or complications, just options.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 776 by Pictii

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Message 778 of 6029 Reply

Re: Is any one intrested in Dming a game Lotherio_Giacomo
(27/M/Omaha, NE) 7/6/99 1:59 pm
I just wanted to add my two cents (and say hello, I'm new here).

If I'm running a retainer through the adventures with the PC's (that is, they go through the dungeon, help fight monsters, help with traps - everything that the PC's do) then when it comes time to divvy up group experience, that NPC retainer get's a share equal to all others. If they're always with the PC party, they should be getting just as much experience as them.

If the NPC is acting like a squire and stays with the horses while the other's adventure, then s/he doesn't get any of that until it comes to story/adventure/finish exp, again, they get an equal share.

Basically, it's up to the Players. If they're having their retainers going along side by side with them 100% of the time, then they're willing to give up an equal portion of the exp's to that retainer.

My pc's don't take on too many retainers/henchmen/npcs to begin with, but that may be because I run my campaign from one day to the next - not the adventure, off for a month, adventure again.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 771 by Beard_Y

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Message 779 of 6029 Reply

I'm new granddruid_1999
7/6/99 7:50 pm
I am totally new with this guild I am working on a way to create races involving points and behavior

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Message 780 of 6029 Reply

Re: Dave Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/6/99 8:39 pm
If ya did not start with First Ed. there is no way you can know the difference!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 773 by Jiriki13

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Message 783 of 6028 Reply

Re: I will run an online Game. Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/6/99 10:51 pm
Would you like me to delete those posts Danduin?
Pictii


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Message 784 of 6029 Reply

2nd edition Birdbone
(M/Washington) 7/7/99 12:24 am
Uh Pictii I'm not sure what you're talking about with needing multiple books to generate characters in second edition. All you need is the Player's Handbook. Also, I got the first edition books recently and they seem really confusing after knowing second edition.


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Message 785 of 6029 Reply

Re: 2nd Edition lo_fang
(18/M/Rohnert Park, CA) 7/7/99 4:15 am
I think what the problem was is that you DM friend was introducing you to the 2nd ed. and all the Players Option rules at the same time, he should probably be a lot more patient or just stick to the plain 2nd ed. rules

In my opinion, the player's option rules shouldn't be used when there is someone playing who isn't familiar with D&D

This Is a Reply to: Msg 776 by Pictii

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Message 786 of 6029 Reply

Re: I will run an online Game. Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/7/99 8:31 am
I would appreciate that

This Is a Reply to: Msg 783 by Pictii

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Message 787 of 6029 Reply

Re: 2nd Edition-Pictii Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/7/99 8:53 am
No offense, but it sounds like the person trying to teach you how to make a character from 2nd edition just didn't have a good grasp of how to make up a character. Which books did he have. The only real book you need to make up a character for 2nd edition is the PHB. The handbooks are just to further add to your characters abilities and uniqueness.
By the way, weapon specialization is very simply the fighter's chosen weapon. In other words his favorite. Specialization if that weapon grants him bonuses to hit and damage above any strength or magical bonuses. Fighters in 2nd edition were only allowed to specialize in one weapon, but could become proficient in as many weapons as was possible.
I just think that the person you dealt with didn't know what he/she was doing.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 776 by Pictii

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Message 788 of 6029 Reply

2nd ed... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/7/99 8:56 am
Yes I think it is fairly obvious that the DM in question had a very poor working knowledge of the game he was trying to run. Hence the multiple books...players options, skills and powers, and equipment tome, all came into playy in the aforementioned failed gaming session.

First ed seems confusing probably due to it's simplicity.

I would have been better off trying to learn second ed., had I never played before but the problem is that I can recite most first ed. charts and such by rote the confusion comes from in my head. Perhaps were I to engage a DM who is skillful and knowledgeable enough about both editions than I am certain I might even enjoy the variant.

Pictii

I may be obstinate I am not daft.


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Message 789 of 6029 Reply

Re: Danduin Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/7/99 9:02 am
I didn't play 1st edition, but I did buy some of the books(PHB, DM guide, Arcanum, etc.) and looked through them to see what the difference was. I did this shortly after the first time that I DM'd, because I had a player that said he liked 1st edition better. I bought the books from a used book store and I found nothing that made 1st edition any better than 2nd edition and found that I thought 2nd edition was more streamlined and, though not perfect, was improved. I may have not been a biased opinion, but that's life.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 780 by Danduin_

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Message 790 of 6028 Reply

Re: I'm new SCA_Bard
7/7/99 9:39 am
You might want to take a look at Steve Jackson Games's GURPS books. They did point systems way before Player's Option. My boyfriend is a total GURPS disciple and claims its superiority over every other gaming system...I'm not so sure about that, but it is well thought out and the point system works pretty well. Their nonhuman races have certain point values based on their abilities and hinderances, so maybe that's close to what you're looking for.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 779 by granddruid_1999

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Message 791 of 6029 Reply

1st ed. Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/7/99 1:13 pm
I think that, comparitively, the 1st ed. is more confusing because the material isn't laid out as well as 2nd ed. I think 2nd ed. is more organized in how it presents the material. I really don't think there is that big a difference between the two editions. There is just more supplimental material for the 2nd ed. The 2nd edition just consolidated a lot of what was happening in the 1st ed, Dragon Mag, and the RPGA (The RPGA concept of THAC0 was a great simplification) and organized it all better, with a few refinements. Most of the additional rules that came with 2nd ed. are labled clearly "Optional Rules," including the non-weapon proficiency system.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 788 by Pictii

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Message 792 of 6029 Reply

Re: Danduin Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/7/99 5:04 pm
Indeed 2nd is all that. First Edition is something that you had to experience. You can't go back now and get the same feeling. At this point in time there is no less than 100 different RPGs on the market.

When I started playing D&D you had a much more narrow choice Basic D&D and a bit later, AD&D (a.k.a. First Edition) oh yeah Expert D&D (an expansion of the basic set). It is hard to explain and probably even harder to understand but in many ways I prefer the old books and the older game.

How many of you 1st editioners out there know what picture is on the DMG without looking?
or Emirikol the Chaotic and his frantic ride (possibly, he does not look too frantic to me!) out of the city?
I sure do. Matter of fact that picture was the trigger for a rather long adventure of mine.

Tell me, Dave, without looking describe the picture on the front cover of your 2nd ed DMG. It is a striking picture but I had to go look at it to remember.

On the subject of the DMG, Why in the world did they remove the monster tables in the back of the book? (Commercialism?) I nearly break my back lugging all these damnable 2ed books PHB, DMG, MM, Complete Arse Picker, ad infinitum . . .

I am not attacking you, your thoughts or anything like that. I guess it's like a first love, you might move on but you will never forget. Who knows nearly twenty years (oh my!) from now you might be in my shoes defending 2nd ed from the proponents of the fourth incarnation. . . . .

This Is a Reply to: Msg 789 by Jiriki13

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Message 793 of 6029 Reply

Re: Danduin Nunizo
(M/Arkansas) 7/7/99 5:52 pm
Wasn't it a statue, with some thieves removing the eyes?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 792 by Danduin_

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Message 794 of 6028 Reply

Re: Danduin Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/7/99 7:01 pm
Close. That was the PHB. The DMG had The City of Brass, in full, both cover, wrap-around glory!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 793 by Nunizo

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Message 795 of 6029 Reply

Re: 2nd ed... mharelick
7/7/99 11:05 pm
Actually alot of those charts are still in effect. The only major difference is that each player is responsible for knowing his THAC0 or roll needed to hit AC zero. Everything is still the same, except as I and other people have mentioned before, better consolidated.

Matthew

This Is a Reply to: Msg 788 by Pictii

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Message 796 of 6029 Reply

Re: Danduin Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/8/99 9:16 am
the cover of the DM guid (first ed) is a fire giant with a large sword in his right hand and some poor soul in his left there are other humans frantically trying to rescue their friend also.

Emrikol it looks to me as if he is just entering the city for a night of chaotic mischief I always marveled at his boldness.
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 792 by Danduin_

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Message 797 of 6029 Reply

1st ed. artwork Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/8/99 2:20 pm
I loved the cheesy artwork in the 1st ed. books. It was not near the quality of the work in the current books (there are some exceptions). The comic-book like work of Jeff Dee was my favorite, but David Trampier and Erol Otus were also faves. Planescape artist, Tony DiTerlizzi said that the old David Tramier drawings in the 1st edition games were a big influence on his work.

How about "A Paladin In Hell." I loved that drawing. I think it is cool how they redid that drawing for the cover of the "Paladin in Hell" adventure. Sort of like a remake of a great old black and white movie.

Toward the end of the 1st edition, they reissued the books with flashy new Jeff Easly covers. I bought these because my old ones were falling apart. The interior art is still the same, though.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 792 by Danduin_

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Message 798 of 6029 Reply

Re: 2nd Edition fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 7/8/99 7:51 pm
It sounds to me like that DM was using every "OPTION" in he book as hard-core rules (which there are none) and then adding things either from supplemental handbooks or his own imagination. That bit with weapon mastery sounds like the "Complete Fighters Handbook" of which I have no use for.

As a rule, I suggest to new players that they not become a "magic-user" as their first character unless they are willing to put some work into it. I feel that a player needs to have some idea of what the character can do and for spell casters that meeans some understanding of the spells they have. I have not, nad will not, ever make a player create a character they don't want. I rather work with them in creating a character that is fun to play and has room to grow.

I have played D&D, AD&D ed.1, and AD&D ed.2 and found good and bad in all of them. But what makes any of them work is the DM. My first DM learned playing D&D and moved upto AD&D ed.1. He never went to ed.2 mainly because he was comfortable with the first edition and he ran a good game with it so there was no need to change. When he moved away and we needed a DM I took up the 2nd ed. as I could never figure out the "to hit" chart he used (the predecessor to the THAC0 chart).

I do, however, have DMG/PHB for all 3 versions of the game and pick and choose what I like out of all of them. Personally I just love that random dungeon generator from ed.1.

You here people speaking about the different Complete Handbooks and the player options and how great they are, but frankly, you don't need any of them. I had a player running her thief as a scout long before the Complete Thiefs Handbook came out. She would put greater emphasis on hide-in-shadows and move-silently and less on pick-pocket and climb-walls. Also, it was in how she played the character, not just in its statistical abalities. In the non-weapon proficiencies she choose ones that would complement the persona she was developing. So, you see, KITS are not needed, nor are different sub-classes. What is needed is DM and PLAYER working together.

That how I see it!
The Blind Sage

This Is a Reply to: Msg 776 by Pictii

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Message 799 of 6029 Reply

Re: 2nd Edition-fendicaf actinfoolish
(28/M/Farnham-chickenpartsville) 7/9/99 6:10 am
HEAR HERE! Well-spoken! Any anti-'*' editioners should print that post for future reference.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 798 by fendicaf

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Message 800 of 6029 Reply

Re: I think I'll keep my style Myrkul999
(20/M/Ft. Lauderdale, FL) 7/9/99 6:49 am
a few points adressed:

1. I don't use Psionics. I've always felt that was a severe advantage over other characters and adversaries and gets too close to god-like powers.

A) If the Players can have Psionics, so can the Villains. Toss in a Wild Talent just for fun, see what happens. (Death Field would be perfect here)

B) What do you call calling Fire from the sky or lobbing Lightning around? Bad gas? seems pretty powerfull to me. Almost god-like, you might say.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 753 by actinfoolish

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Message 801 of 6030 Reply

Re: 2nd Edition Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/9/99 7:05 am
You are right as I have stated too many tomes came into the character generation process and we never even got through it.

I would not reccomend to a inexxperianced player to play any sort of spell user, however that is what she wanted to play. Actually not a mage but an Herbalist (about which her knowledge is vast) cleric, witch really should not have been nearly as traumatic as it was. Too many variants and again I will say too many restrictions kept this game from ever getting off the ground. Unfourtunately I have a tainted opinion now and must battle uphill to extract even good from the later version of the game.

Pictii

ps Even if I do not posses weapon mastery and I hit the offending DM over the head with a #32 Louisville Slugger would I have to give myself penalties because it is not my favorite weapon, an officers model .45?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 798 by fendicaf

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Message 802 of 6030 Reply

Starting Players Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/9/99 9:25 am
I traditionaly start all my first time players out as generic fighters. I roll once for them on the secondary skills table to give them a non-advenruring identity, give them any applicable proficiencies, then let them have the character to see what they do with it. If a new player wants to specifically play something else, that is fine, but I start them as simply as possible (i.e. no kits, to specialists, etc.) so they can get a handle on the game and their character without having to wrestle with various rules. This has worked well for my campaign and I have no regrets. One guy who has been playing for a few years is still playing the generic fighter he started with and loves him.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 798 by fendicaf

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Message 803 of 6030 Reply

Necessity of Kits Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/9/99 10:21 am
No, kits are not the least bit necessary to the game, but they are a nice spice to add to a campaign.

Like I mentioned before, some kits give the PC abilities he wouldn't have had otherwise, like the Sea Ranger, the Desert Druid, or the Shaman. But even that is not the real beauty of kits.

The real beauty of the kit is that it gives players and DM's ideas of different character types to play based on the core classes and subclasses. No you don't need them. I had a Bounty Hunter character back when I played 1st ed., and it was suprisingly similar to the kit. However they can spur the imaginations of the less imaginative players, and give rules and notes on how to play the character in a balanced fasion.

I only use about half of the kits that are presented in the handbooks, because I feel some of them are simply role playing crutches and are unnecessary, however some of them are really cool and fit nicely into my campaign. They also eliminate the need for having myriad subclasses, like the 1st ed and Dragon Magazine was starting to do before the 2nd ed. came out.

Kits are also handy for me, the DM. I create my own kits to represent organizations within my campaign. For example, members of a particular order of knighthood will have a certain set of proficiencies, attributes, responsibilities, etc. Members of this "secret circle" must know how to do this, and always wear this, and have the special ability to do this, etc. These homemade kits are a great tool for me and my campaign. No, you don't "need" them, but they are a nice addition. At least they are for my campaign.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 798 by fendicaf

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Message 804 of 6030 Reply

Re: Starting Players Beard_Y
(17/M/Bristol, UK) 7/9/99 11:06 am
Personallly I let my charecters choose from theif or fighter as I have a game with fixed special skills for these classes. It also has slightly more complicated prosses for a certain type of cleric and a certain type of magic-user. It only permits these classes for humans. It also permits Dwarves and Halflings to be fighters only and Elves to be only dual class fighter/magic-users.
It does not permit other races. I use these rules for charecter generation at all times to avoid confusion and do not permit any options with the exception of cleric spells used in the game.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 802 by Umbratikus

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Message 805 of 6028 Reply

Re: Starting Players Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/9/99 1:46 pm
To say that my wife is a completely inexperianced gamer is not entirely true. She has a Fgt/ thief character in my world and really enjoyed playing her. She wanted to play a cleric/theif based on a travelling herbalist. (again about which her knowledge is vast) Since both she and the DM would be asking me questions about the game during play I did not even risk venturing into a debate with her. Who could have forseen the ineptitude of the DM? Now I will be hard pressed to get her back into the game. Which is really a shame as she is a very cunning and innovative player. Alas. Therein lies my bias against second ed.
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 802 by Umbratikus

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Message 806 of 6030 Reply

Re: Pictii Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/9/99 2:28 pm
I know it's been mentioned before, but I feel that your bias should be aimed toward the DM in question and not the 2nd edition game. Lets face the facts, no matter what gaming system/edition you play, they all have pros and cons.

Dave.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 805 by Pictii

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Message 807 of 6030 Reply

Re: 2nd Edition Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/9/99 3:40 pm
I have to agree with you on that last paragraph. The one good thing kits have going for them is from the viewpoint of a new player who maybe needs a 'helping hand' with what role playing is all about.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 798 by fendicaf

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Message 808 of 6030 Reply

Completely off topic! Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/9/99 10:34 pm
Felsfeci, our club founder, has recently informed me that the club is coming up on it's anniversary in september. The club has been around for quite a while and though I am a relative new comer I feel at home and am proud to have been made a founder. What ever edition we favor our love for the game is obviously huge. We are all very busy people and we take time out of our hectic lives to prattle on and on about the game's finer and dimmer points. We either all should be committed or are zealots, either way keep it up. I believe the DM's Guild is one of the oldest clubs on yahoo and I know for certain our members are among the most enthusiastic. So at the risk of sounding like a complete dork...LONG LIVE THE GUILD AND ALL THE MEMBERS May your dice roll hot and your players roll cold!

GAME ON!

Pictii Americanus


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Message 809 of 6030 Reply

Re: Completely off topic! Karleah
(34/M/My Nest) 7/9/99 11:38 pm
I am very happy to see this club having such a great success. I was here when it was first founded and I was one of the firs people to join it and I saw it becoming one of the most important clubs after the Dungeon Master Haven had its problems and was left without a founder. I am very busy but I always enjoy taking a look at the ideas and comments that come up from here. I wish this club a very long and prosperous life !
Great job, adventurers !

Karleah.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 808 by Pictii

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Message 810 of 6030 Reply

Re: Completely off topic! Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/10/99 6:54 am
I will endevour to keep the club a place we all like to "come to" HUZZAH for us.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 809 by Karleah

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Message 811 of 6030 Reply

Re: Completely off topic! Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/10/99 7:32 am
07/10/1999 06:54 am EDT are you insane that is way too early to be online looking at Yahoo! Clubs. . . .

This Is a Reply to: Msg 810 by Pictii

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Message 813 of 6030 Reply

Re: Critical hit tables mharelick
7/10/99 11:16 am
Here is a repost, the yahoo message entry
field does not format things the same way that the yahoo web page does.


Again, please feel free to comment, modify, use.
But please post the modifications.

Nonfatal criticals
d10 Effect

1 Swing Again

2 Stun for 1 round.

3 Stun for d4+1 rounds.

4 Knockdown and stun for d6-1 rounds.

5 Disarm
Ignore if victim's weapon is natural.

6 Opponents next swing fumbles.

7 Knock unconcious for d6 rounds.

8 Destroy Armor.
Ignore if armor is natural or body armor.

9 Remove Limb.

10 Destroy Organ.

Definitions:

Stun: Victim is treated as suprised for the
duration of stun.

Destroy Armor: The victims armor class
receives a cuumulative penalty of +1. If the
armor class drops to a level where the
armour is irrelevant, then the armour has
been completely destroyed. If the victim is
carrying a shield , there is a 50% chance that
it was the item that was it, in which case it
is completely destroyed.

Limbs (roll 2d4)

2 Head
3 Foot
4 Leg
5 Hand
6 Arm
7 Toe
8 Finger

Organs (roll d8)
1 Eye
2 Mouth
3 Ear
4 Nose
5 Stomach
6 Chest
7 Genitals
8 Spine


Fumbles

Missile Weapons (Roll d6)
1 Break Launcher

2 Hit Friend

3 Break Launcher

4 Break Missile

5 Drop Missile

6 Drop Launcher

Nonmissiles (Roll d6)

1 Swing around and hit foe.

2 Hit friend

3 Throw Weapon

4 Break Weapon

5 Drop Weapon

6 Drop Weapon

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Message 814 of 6030 Reply

Re: Critical hit tables Karleah
(34/M/My Nest) 7/10/99 2:43 pm
Thanks. It is useful.

Karleah


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Message 815 of 6030 Reply

I'm looking to Game here... :( General_Gamer
(24/M/Chattanooga, Tennessee) 7/10/99 2:56 pm
Hi Guys&Gals:

I'm looking for a group to play or DM here in Chattanooga Tennessee; but there is noone to play with. :(


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Message 816 of 6028 Reply

Two things... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/10/99 3:55 pm
Mharelick I deleted the first posting that was all jumbled.

7/10/ 6:54 nearly seven. I had been up for three hours already old habits die hard.
I guess I am a bit whacked.

Pictii

Who else is gonna feed the critters?


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Message 817 of 6028 Reply

Idea spellmaster15
(15/M/Richland, PA) 7/11/99 4:11 am
Hey, do any of you guys and gals have Warcraft II?
if you do i got an idea the other day. Using the map editor, i can map out my battles, therefore illustrating the situation that my players' characters are in. I requires putting a little of time in before hand, but it actually saves time in the long run, because i no longer have to reminder my players which enemies they are in range of and which ones are not. This makes the battle go a lot faster and smoother for me and my players. in detail all i did was make a senario map of the battle, and open uit up when the battle began for my players to view the scene. it is kind of like playing Vandal hearts for Playstation. i suggest you people who have it give it a try.

Toney

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Message 818 of 6030 Reply

Of Gods and Men... Harlequin_1998
(24/M/Birmingham, AL) 7/12/99 10:19 pm
I'm toying with an idea at the moment, and I figured I post a message about it. The way that I work Gods into my campaignis that their power comes from their followers. The more followers a God has, and the more faith those followers have, the more powerful the God. There are restrictions, however, the most important being that a God cannot directly act outside of his own plane. Therefore, he can only act through his followers. In addition, communication is difficult between the Gods plane and the prime and the gap can only be bridged by the faith of the individual that the God is trying to contact. What this means is that Gods can send anybody a message, but only those of great faith, like high priests and such, will understand it clearly. Of course, the message can be misunderstood, but that is a different matter entirely.
Anyway, the point of all this is that I was thinking of having people from out of my area play the parts of these Gods via email. The Gods would get updates every onve in a while (depending on how often my group meets), and they would send back instructions to me. This way, each God would have their own agenda and it would help me to detail the world in which my PC's live. I would love to hear what you think!


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Message 819 of 6028 Reply

Re: The line for God hood starts here... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/12/99 11:16 pm
So you are asking for voluteers to play god...how cool thats a pretty keen idea.

Pictii
Chuckling heartily

This Is a Reply to: Msg 818 by Harlequin_1998

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<- Previous Next -> Message 820 of 6030 Reply

Re: Of Gods and Men... wwillie2
(M/Worcester,MA) 7/12/99 11:36 pm
That sounds like a very good and creative idea. I think it will definately add great flavor and variety to your world, especially if you get some really creative people to be the gods. I hope you get it worked out.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 818 by Harlequin_1998

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Message 821 of 6030 Reply

Re: Of Gods and Men... Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/12/99 11:42 pm
hehehe Excellent Idea.
Y'know the gods power related to the followers was broached in a Discworld novel called "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett. His writing is humorous/satirical and addictive. check 'em out.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 818 by Harlequin_1998

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Message 822 of 6030 Reply

Re: Of Gods and Men... Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/12/99 11:42 pm
Umm there is really no helpful information for your idea in that book but it is funny.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 821 by Danduin_

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Message 823 of 6030 Reply

Re: The line for God hood starts here... Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/12/99 11:59 pm
Umm yeah I almost forgot I am right behind Pictii
*BOO* for a shot at god hood.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 819 by Pictii

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Message 824 of 6028 Reply

Re: Of Gods and Men... Birdbone
(M/Washington) 7/13/99 7:02 am
Hey I'm pretty much in agreement with the ones who have spoken before me: I think it's a great idea. I say go for it.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 818 by Harlequin_1998

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Message 825 of 6028 Reply

Re: Of Gods and Men...Harlequin 1998 Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/13/99 8:11 am
I volunteer for godhood, if you need another.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 818 by Harlequin_1998

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Message 826 of 6028 Reply

Re: Of Gods and Men...Harlequin 1998 Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/13/99 8:55 am
Put me in line for godhood as well. You know, you could even use a Yahoo club as a forum for your "Gods." You could create a private club (by invitation only) and populate it with only your "Gods." Just an idea.

P.S. You handle your Theology in a very similar manner to the way I handle mine. I'm very big on the power of the god being directly proportionate to the number and faithfulness of the followers. This gives the priests a real role to play in the campaign, by working to broadening the influence of their chosen deity. It also creates competition between different faiths and leads to interesting role playing between PC priests.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 825 by Jiriki13

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Message 827 of 6030 Reply

Of Gods and Women SCA_Bard
7/13/99 10:12 am
I'll volunteer as a female Power, if you need one. I'm comfortable with anything from Demeter to the Morrigan.

SCA Bard

This Is a Reply to: Msg 826 by Umbratikus

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Message 828 of 6030 Reply

Re: Of Gods and Men... Myrkul999
(20/M/Ft. Lauderdale, FL) 7/13/99 10:45 am
I'd Love to. It would be Great Exercise for my RP muscles.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 818 by Harlequin_1998

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Message 829 of 6030 Reply

Re: Of Gods and Men... granddruid_1999
7/13/99 11:09 am
Looks very interesting, I would like to try that. Need another player?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 818 by Harlequin_1998

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Message 830 of 6030 Reply

Re: Of Gods and Men... mharelick
7/13/99 4:34 pm
This sounds cool.

I want to play a god.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 818 by Harlequin_1998

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Message 831 of 6030 Reply

Re: The line for God hood starts here... mharelick
7/13/99 4:36 pm
I remember, Pictii a certain DM from my youth whose gods grew powerful only when his followers would slay people and deliver their souls ...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 819 by Pictii

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Message 832 of 6030 Reply

RE: of gods and Men mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 7/13/99 4:39 pm
I am planning in a campaign im in (as a player) to be a god who has been defeated, having most of powers taken away by the victor, and had all of his followers but one being killed. My character (this game hasnt started yet) will have the goal of eventually killing the other god and reclaiming his place. Right now he can do very little, hes basically a 1 st level mage who will never die of old age. (spells like wish will have other effects, like making me look older, reducing charisma maybe)

mkinjubhy


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Message 833 of 6030 Reply

*ahem* Postmodern1
(M/Mpls MN) 7/13/99 4:55 pm
"Dave, get the barbarian in the corner another drink!"

This Is a Reply to: Msg 832 by mkinjubhy

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Message 834 of 6030 Reply

Of Gods and ... Persons :) Harlequin_1998
(24/M/Birmingham, AL) 7/13/99 6:47 pm
Well, the response to my post has been overwhelming. I think that I will go ahead with my idea. As soon as I get the logistics fifured out, I will repost. I have kept a list of all of you have said you wished to play a role, so you guys will get first pick of the Gods. Thanks!


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Message 835 of 6030 Reply

Re: The line for God hood starts here... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/14/99 8:25 am
I thought about that the other day Mharelick, that was a rather specific instance and I don't believe it was in any way the norm. {I always thought that was your campaign...or was it DonO's}
In any event he was an evil, (STRESS EVIL) PC, who was subject to divine intervention on the condition that he gather souls to feed The One. (An ambitious minor death if memory serves...)

Pictii
Don't blame that mess on me.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 831 by mharelick

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Message 836 of 6030 Reply

godhood Rune_Lord
(312/M/Somewhere in Faerun) 7/14/99 9:39 am
If it not to late, can I sign up for one? Let me know....thanks


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Message 837 of 6030 Reply

Re: The line for God hood starts here... Beard_Y
(17/M/Bristol, UK) 7/14/99 10:25 am
In my campaigns I use a list of pre-created gods most of which are just there to be worrshipped but let the truely faithful have light spells as a reward. However some gods are limited to certain classes and alingments

This Is a Reply to: Msg 835 by Pictii

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Message 838 of 6030 Reply

Can you a be a good who should be one granddruid_1999
7/14/99 1:00 pm
can you be raistlin?

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Message 839 of 6030 Reply

OOC dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 7/14/99 6:08 pm
My apologies, my friends, for not being here as of late. I injured my back and have been unable to sit at the desk where the computer is. The Blind Sage has been keeping me informed of the postings, though. When my back is better, I shall post a book!!!!

TTFN

Dragn_lady

(Domestic Goddess) really!!! it's on my tax forms!!


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Message 840 of 6030 Reply

Re: OOC Rune_Lord
(312/M/Somewhere in Faerun) 7/15/99 8:34 am
Sorry to hear about your back....hope you get well soon.

Rune Lord

This Is a Reply to: Msg 839 by dragn_lady

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Message 841 of 6030 Reply

Forced alingment change... Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/16/99 9:29 am
I've come to a point, after DM'ing for 5 years, that is new territory for me. I have a player that has a dwarven fighter that is chaotic good. I feel that his alignment should be changed to chaotic neutral and I have warned him of this. The reasoning behind the alignment change is a multitude of actions and inactions the contradict each other. This player's wife also plays and she plays an elven fighter, or did, she's dead now. When she was alive though, the dwarf would go out of his way to help his wife's elf or to save her, and I mean he would do anything possible to save her character. I don't have problem with this, although it's kind of lame in my opinion. The problem comes in when there were other instances when this player wouldn't do anything to save another character other than his wife's. There were several instances when he could have saved a PC a couple of times, but chose to attack the creature that was attacking them at the time. One recent instance that happened last weekend was that they were in a major battle and he got knocked unconscious. A dwarven fighter/thief made it over to him and shoved a potion of healing down his throat, even though the enemy was still right there and would obviously target him for his next strike. He shoved the potion down his throat and got nailed in the same round and was also knocked unconscious, he was already low on hit points too. The player with the dwarven fighter wouldn't even make an attempt to help or carry the other dwarf out of the fray, but he decided to actually run from the enemy anyway and got nailed again with an attack of opportunity. Either way they both went down, but the dwarven fighter player was telling the dwarven fighter/thief player that he couldn't do anything to help him. There are several other instances, but those contradictory instances are the ones that stand out the most.
I would appreciate some opinions.

Dave

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Message 842 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change... fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 7/16/99 10:29 am
Unfortunately I have encountered similiar problems. In most cases the player would mis-play their alignment based on personal attitude toward another player. In other words it was the players with a problem and they gave te same problem to their characters.
One in particular, was a Neutral-Good Ranger. She was very greedy with treasure, blood thirsty to the extream, and very abusive of a Paladin who was played by her ex-boyfriend. She was warned several times that her character was going to have a major alignment change with sever penalties. This never came about because the player moved out of town and lost intrest in playing.
This was the worst case I have ever encountered, in other cases the player was warned and they either corrected the way they played or the voluntairilly made the alignment change and except the consequences of the change. In the later case I would only impose the minimum penalty.

the blind sage

This Is a Reply to: Msg 841 by Jiriki13

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Message 843 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/16/99 1:43 pm
The problem with alignment is that it is only a rough guid as to how a player basically feels. People who could be classified as LG lawful good, every day step over and around other humans claiming they can be of no assistance, people such as tax collectors and others who thrive on stealing from the general populous are classified as "good" even though I would say they were maniacle or Lawful evil. In the case with the 2 dwarves, D1 DF/T, D1 was playing his character in a fashion he had grown accustomed to, because it had been Standard Operating Procedure, Why would DF/T help D1 when he knew D1 would not help him?
A character that is chaotic is actually the toughest to align, by their very chaotic nature they will commit acts others see as wrong that they feel not only justified in commiting but maybe even obliged to. To further their particular needs. I don't feel your problem is one of alignment but bad role playing the offending character or characters are playing their own personal games, not their characters.

A treasure hungry Ranger...? how does that work.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 842 by fendicaf

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Message 844 of 6028 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change...Pictii Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/16/99 2:40 pm
That is true that they are just role playing guides, but a chaotic good character should still do what is right, whether that action is legal or socially acceptable or not. The problem I have is that leaving a party member that just risked his neck, when he was already hurt, to save you and you don't return the favor when he was put down trying to save you is kind of evil in a way or at the very least a neutral act. I don't know, maybe I'm not being objective. I view chaotic good as a person that acts and reacts with pure emotion and does good or has good intentions in mind, whether it is within the law or not. I just don't see where leaving a supposed friend in the clutches of the evil priest after he tried to save you is a good intention.

Thanks for the opinion.
Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 843 by Pictii

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Message 845 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change... Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/16/99 7:35 pm
There is a lot going on there. I suggest you read (re read) Chapter 4, Alignment, of the DMG especially the parts about Role playing alignment (p24 in my book) and Changing alingment. With that said I have to agree with the comment that it more a problem of poor role playing than alingment deviation.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 841 by Jiriki13

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Message 846 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change... mharelick
7/16/99 7:48 pm
I don't think alignment should be treated as big a deal unless the character is a paladin, a ranger or a cleric of a deity whose followers need to be a specific alignment. What matters more is proper roleplaying, is the character roleplaying his character in a consistent fashion. The way I handle that is by penalizing a character in terms of experience points for bad role playing.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 841 by Jiriki13

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Message 847 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change...Pictii mharelick
7/16/99 7:50 pm
Being good aligned is not synonomous with being suicidal.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 844 by Jiriki13

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Message 848 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change...Pictii Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/16/99 8:31 pm
The problem with alignment is also the frame of refrance you are useing to judge a good act. What basically is right and wrong?...imagine a culture where to kill with steel (a sword a knife etc.) is considered "butchery"...so this culture (to make necessary deaths less "barbaric") adopts the use of fast acting poison any time weapons are used the slightest scratch causes swift death. Who is to say to that culture that the use of poison is "evil" when they obviously use poison for "humane" reasons. A chaotic merely by being chaotic does not necessarily mean a zealot. Order offends lots of people that does not make them bad "evil" it just means there is apt to be little rhyme or reason to what ever endevours they engage in for what ever their reasons are. As opposed to a lawful type (not necessarily good either the Nazi's were a perfect example of lawful evil) who is more apt to follow a prescribed route to achieve his/her ends.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 844 by Jiriki13

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Message 849 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change...Pictii Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/16/99 8:34 pm
It sounds to me like the player in question is a major tool. Were I one of his gaming companions he would be left hanging sooner or later.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 844 by Jiriki13

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Message 850 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change...Pictii fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 7/17/99 1:50 am
Hear, hear!!!! I readily agree with that, pictii, as something very similar happened with another player YEARS ago....was not poor role playing,was definitely alignment change. The sap was handed over to priests/esses of Meiliki, for atrosities done to one of her creatures. It wasn't the ranger/treasure hungry player either...

And no the ranger wasn't working...that's why we were somewhat glad that the character was dropped.

Besides, my two characters had had enough of dealing with people who were changing for the worst!


Dragn_lady

oh, didn't I tell you???? Blind Sage and I are married...... He was here, and I took over...as always!! :)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 849 by Pictii

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Message 851 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change...Pictii Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 7/17/99 4:18 am
I also agree with Pictii. Frame of reference is very important when considering alignment. I think something that really should be done at the start of a campaign but seems to be often overlooked is for the DM to sit down with each player and really discuss what alignment means between them, to clear up any future misunderstandings. Nothing's more frustrating than a player who honestly believes that he's playing his character true to that character's alignment, and a DM who thinks otherwise.
Anyway, it sure seemed to me that the dwarven fighter is pretty much in it out of self-interest. However, there are still elements that confused me about the example. If he was facing certain death, that opens up a lot of questions. If the two of them are just in the dungeon for a lark, or treasure-hunting, then perhaps he should try and stand his ground, hoping for a miracle. If there's a mission that really, really needs to be accomplished, perhaps something vital for the safety of the land, then running away to fight another day could be less cause for penalization, especially if he has reason to believe he might be the only survivor. All this, of course, is dependent upon the frame of reference, as Pictii said. Anyway, apologies in advance for any confusion on my part. I kind of skimmed the messages quickly.
One last thing. I've been playing without alignments for a while now. It seems to be working pretty well.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 850 by fendicaf

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Message 852 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change Postmodern1
(M/Mpls MN) 7/18/99 6:25 pm
Philosophically speaking, there are some inherent problems with the alignment system. Alignment seems to contain more grey area than we want to give it. For the sake of arguement, say a person's alignment defines what they call "moral and right" behavior (basic enough platform, I think). Dozens of examples could be given of people acting completely against what they would, under different circumstances, consider right behavior. Stress, panic, lust, etc all can over-rule any pre-set group of moral guidelines; the news is filled with it every day.
Relating that to game play, I personally am hard pressed to impose penalties on players who are "out of alignment" unless it completely contradicts the definition of the class/race/kit/ whatever. For me, that leaves rangers, paladins and some mythos' preists the ones who need to control their actions.
What of other characters who disregard their choosen alignments? You don't even need to mention a change to them. Say a L/G warrior makes a hobby out of the torture and execution of captured foes - he still thinks his actions are moral and good, but those around him (should) see the truth and react accordingly.

Sorry to go on so long ....

This Is a Reply to: Msg 851 by Ellowan

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Message 853 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change... Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/19/99 9:12 am
I understand that choatic good doesn't have to be a goody goody, but they are supposed to be good in any event. A yes, I do believe that the player in question is not playing his character very well and he has be warned and penalized for bad role playing several times. The group has had group discussions, one for almost an hour on tactics and teamwork, trying to get the dwarf to work as a team. The entire party has reason to dislike, if not hate, this dwarf becuase of past discressions. He has more than a couple of times left another teammate to die. It just doesn't seem to me that he's been playing at all like a good character.

P.S.: Pictii, just becuase a person is lawful good doesn't mean they have to support every person in every city, town, villiage or hamlett they travel through. They do what they can to help, but it's up to every individual to make a living. Some people would just rather be poor with no responsiblities. I wouldn't classify any person that was stealing for his own purposes and putting other folk in dire straits as good, but a tax collector doesn't have to evil to carry out the laws of a kingdom.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 843 by Pictii

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Message 854 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change... Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/19/99 9:42 am
Alignment is always a touchy thing, but if I may play the Baatezu's Advocate here, I could argue that the dwarf was not playing outside of his alignment. Suppose that the dwarf character was in love with the player's wife's character. Stranger things have happened. Then would he be acting outside of his character to risk all to save her, but not do the same for the others? Ahh, the things we do for love. Also, him deserting his rescuer at a crucial time could be an act of cowardice, not of evil. If this were the case, the dwarf should be guilt ridden over his desertion.

I agree, however, that an alignment change would be in order, but I would be more inclined to change it to Neutral Evil, than Chaotic Neutral. CN is perhaps the most difficult alignment to play, with the possible exception of true Neutral.

One of the problems here is that the player is letting his real life relationships affect his character's actions. This happens often, and is unfortunate. However, what can you do? You could talk to both of the players (the husband and wife), but perhaps there will be hell to pay after the game if the husband doesn't help his wife. "Hell hath no fury..."

This Is a Reply to: Msg 841 by Jiriki13

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Message 855 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change... Myrkul999
(20/M/Ft. Lauderdale, FL) 7/19/99 12:29 pm
Quite frankly, If we were to fully enforce Alignment, most Characters played would be Neutral Evil. Who else goes searching for money, ignoring all else? Who else will argue incessantly about proper dispensation of treasure(always making sure they get the most)? And, of course, He's got a WHAT? KILL HIM!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 854 by Umbratikus

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Message 856 of 6028 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/19/99 2:24 pm
This is the reason I always (nearly) like to play evil characters...usually NE,or CE, rarely LE, as I have a problem with authority which is rather deep rooted.

Ps : Dave I personally feel that most people would fall into a NG alignment (selfish with no real malicious intent, leaning towards things wholesome and good). I also feel that Taxes are theft regardless that is is the state doing the theivery, I also personally feel that there is a special place in hell for tax collectors , lawyers, insurance (most every one associated with this feild) and people who sexually assault children or prey criminally on the old. Remember the Nazi's were just doin their job it still was way wrong.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 855 by Myrkul999

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Message 857 of 6030 Reply

I don't know how to tell you this, Myrk, Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/19/99 2:30 pm
but my players do none of those things, even the Neutral Evil ones.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 855 by Myrkul999

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Message 858 of 6030 Reply

Alignments Lotherio_Giacomo
(27/M/Omaha, NE) 7/19/99 9:25 pm
With all this talk on alignments, I thought I'd post up my two cents.

I think the best guide for alignments is found in the Dark Sun box set. It breaks away from any thoughts on politics and governments we may have. Instead it describes how each alignment might react should it come to distributing limited water between the party in a water shortage. While not having the book in front of me (I don't have this box set but I have read the books), I'll try to recap who the book describes each one. (and if someone has this book and could correct me that'd be better).

When reference is made to dying member - it means dying with no hope of survival

Lawful Good - will want party distribute water equally, will insist their share be distributed amongst party member in need - including dying members
Lawful Neutral - will want equal distributions regardless of dying members
Lawful Evil - will insist upon equal distributions, but will try to work the equation in their favor while trying to make it seem fair
Neutral Good - will go for equal distributions that are in favor of the living members having better chances for survival, may offer some to more needy memebers but only after they have some
Neutral, True - will weigh all factors, go for best distribution based on chances of survival
Neutral Evil - Will want equal distributions amongs living trying to get more water for self
Chaotic Good - would suggest more water be given to the needy, regardless if they are dying
Chaotic Neutral - would care less how water is distributed as long as they get their share.
Chaotic Evil - Will insist dying member get none in favor of living members surviving the ordeal while suggesting they get more because they are better then everyone else.

That's close to it anyways. I never payed close attention to alignment before until I started playing Al-Qadim. Here it seems the 'good guys' do not necessarily have to be of good alignment. Coming from the desert, raiding for livestock is a given part of society - to the point of excluding someone who might think of this as being bad or 'evil'. Great desert leaders probably evolve around the neutral alignments and the really Lawful and Chaotic societies seem to both be bad for the culture as a whole (there is a chaotic society in the north - corsairs, pirates who seem to reak havoc on trade routes. in the south there is an extremely lawful group called the Pantheon, who are lawful to the point of being scary.)

That about sums it up I guess. I just like the definitions in from Dark Sun. Usually, if we get a new player and they come down to choosing an alignment, I have my friend show them this section of the book to help give them a better idea of the alignments (without comparing them any world cultures and their views of 'lawful', which very from government to government, as well as within various religions).

Richie

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Message 859 of 6028 Reply

Re: Alignments Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 7/20/99 12:58 am
That does sound like a better description of alignments than the one in the 2nd edition players' handbook. The latter reminds me of Saturday morning cartoon characters squabbling. The only thing is that it seems the neutral good character comes off sounding a little bit selfish, and otherwise hardly any different from the true neutral character.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 858 by Lotherio_Giacomo

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Message 860 of 6030 Reply

Most PCs NE?! SCA_Bard
7/20/99 9:31 am
I'm astounded by Myrkul's post. Searching for money, above all else? Killing NPCs for treasure? Heck, yeah, that sounds evil to me.

I'm lucky, I guess, to have players who aren't obsessed with that. They like heroes, and I give them 'save the day' scenarios where they can champion good or right. They've taken down a Thieves' Guild and a meglomaniac sorceress so far (in the process they helped the Yakuza and started a civil war, respectively, but those were better alternatives to doing nothing...and the choices were supposed to be hard).

But I guess there are a lot of players who just like the murder and money scenarios...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 855 by Myrkul999

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Message 861 of 6030 Reply

Re: Most PCs NE?! Rune_Lord
(312/M/Somewhere in Faerun) 7/20/99 10:22 am
Most of my players tend to be L/N/C good or L/C neutral. They do nt care much for the evil side that has become associated with the game. I like running the adventure that places the characeter (player) in the position to save the day. Why else would you want to perpetuate the stereo-typing of Fantasy RPG Players and the game as inherently EVIL. Yeah, I can understand the occasional character that is of evil alignment, they have their place in the game after all. I have only player 2 NE and 5-7 LE characters in my 13 years of gaming. After all this is my gaming choice and method. We each have our own style of playing and DMing. It is all about CHOICES.

Well those are my two cents.

Rune Lord

This Is a Reply to: Msg 860 by SCA_Bard

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Message 862 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change... Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/20/99 1:03 pm
I believe that this is more of a player affecting his character's reactions towards his wife's characters, but this is just a minor thing towards the alignment change. He has been acting, with this character anyway, very erratic. One minute he's mister superhero saving the day, until one of the enemy hits him hard and all of a sudden he's a paranoid coward. He also has a habit of telling his compatriots that he'll follow the plan, but then for no reason, just do his own thing; which isn't necessarily against his current alignment. He also has been known to want to torture the enemy one minute and spare their lives the next. I don't know, maybe I just have a crazy view of what chaotic good should be or maybe I'm just interpreting his actions inaccurately.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 854 by Umbratikus

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Message 863 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change... Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/20/99 1:30 pm
I do feel the same way about taxes, but that still doesn't mean that the person collecting the tax is an evil person. I also feel the same about the other professions you mentioned and the perpetrators of those crimes.
One thing though, I would think that a chaotic or lawful good person would be more likely to be selfish than neutral good. Neutral good is the most pure good aligment in the game. This person is not influenced by chaotic views or lawful views, they just want to go good by any means. In my opinion, neutral good can be harder to play than lawful good or chaotic neutral. It's hard for anyone to play a purely good person with no malicious intent, prejudices, or preconcieved notions about another person or situation. I view most people as being more chaotic good or lawful neutral.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 856 by Pictii

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age 864 of 6029 Reply

money and evil Birdbone
(M/Washington) 7/20/99 1:33 pm
I think you're mistaken in that PC's always fight for money and always make sure they got their share...my PC's don't even care about the money that much; they are always dividing it so whoever has the least gets the most (magical items now, that's a different story...).

And I guess I'm alone in this but I don't allow evil characters (they are the bad guys).

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Re: Forced alingment change... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/20/99 1:44 pm
That is strange ... your veiw on NG. I veiw NG as a basically neutral person who leans toward's good actions. People who are not apt to join the crusade but, who feel the crusade might be necessary, would in my opinion be NG. (By the by I do feel tax collectors are evil. No matter how many pictures of thier spawn the decorate thier office walls with.) This is my personal veiw point and yes I do lump them in with the Nazi prison guards who "were just following orders". Theft is theft. Just because the law of the land says take thier money, it is still only via coersion that they are able to suceed in collecting. (If you do not pay we will lock you away.) what is so different between that and: "your money or your life???"

Pictii
sorry for the kooky political's no more for a while

This Is a Reply to: Msg 863 by Jiriki13

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Message 866 of 6030 Reply

Re: evil PCs' Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/20/99 3:58 pm
I don't allow players to have evil PCs' either.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 864 by Birdbone

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Message 867 of 6030 Reply

NG Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/20/99 4:26 pm
I disagree that Neutral Good is difficult to play, in fact, I would argue that it is probably the easiest to play.

Neutral good characters base their actions on what they believe is for the best. If siding with the law is the best for the greater good, they will do so, but they might be the first to go against the law if the law is oppressive or evil. If they are just trying to do "what is good and fair" then they are playing NG. What could be more simple than that?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 863 by Jiriki13

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Message 868 of 6029 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change...Pictii Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/20/99 4:40 pm
I can see your point on the tax collection thing, I believe I'm converted. Your good at arguing, I'm mean debating a point.
By the way, I read that little bit about alignment from a Dragon magazine a few years ago. I'm not sure which one. Your example might be a neutral good person, they may not want to get involved because they have mage a logical conclusion about how the end result might be of that crusade. This may not do good for anyone concerned.
Wouldn't a person who is neutral with good intentions be the ultimate good person. They aren't swayed by chaos or law. Chaos being a person that is a rebel at heart, in other words against everything order represents. Then there is law which is the order that chaos hates. Law is doomed to be flawed becuase of human invention and influence. A neutral good person doesn't see things with respect to what is lawful or what is rebelious, they try to see what would be good for everyone involved.


Just my thoughts.
Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 865 by Pictii

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Message 869 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change...Pictii Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/20/99 5:58 pm
Chaos and law I feel the chaotic alignments are probably the toughest to play as very few of us are so capracious that we could pull off a true chaotic, And the meticulous-ness I associate with lawful endevours would be difficult for others {myself included} to pull off I dont know if it is a hatred of law that guides chaotic beings I think of it more as unfettered by law for good or evil. As for lawful types it is certain they are guided by a hatred of chaos, order is after all order. That being said with no point made I must ask another question.

Why don't you folk's allow players to play evil PC's?
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 868 by Jiriki13

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Message 870 of 6030 Reply

Re: Forced alingment change...Pictii Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/20/99 6:00 pm
PS call a spade a spade I am a bull headed stubborn son of a bitch. Arguing is only one of the unpleasant fortee's in my personality.
Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 868 by Jiriki13

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Message 871 of 6030 Reply

Evil PC's fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 7/20/99 10:23 pm
I have never "not" allowed evil PC's, but on the same token, I've never had a player WANT to play an evil character. Like others here, I base my game scenario's on "heroic-actions". This could be anything from rescuing the kid-napped princess(an over used cliche), to securing the Heartlands from Drow incursions or bringing down a mad/evil god. My adventure have little goals in them, but my campaigns usually have world shaping consequences. By runing my games this way, my players actively shape the world in which they live. My campaigns could be classified as epic-fantasy.

As far as evil PC's, this has only happened when, due to some spell or other magical effect, a character is forced to act in a evil manner. This is particularly nasty when used against a Priest or Paladin who Must seek redemption when they again have their own free will.

The main "evil" in my games is me, the DM. I AM OUT TO KILL THEM ALL AND STEAL THEIR TREASURE!! (maniacal laughter)


The Blind Sage

This Is a Reply to: Msg 870 by Pictii

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Message 872 of 6030 Reply

Law and Chaos Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/21/99 10:05 am
I tend to think of Law and Chaos as being similar to the conservative/liberal or right-wing/left-wing attitudes in the real world. And good and evil are just....well...good and evil.

Also, I see alignments as being on a continuum instead of absolutes. Players select an alignment that is closest to their characters views ("are you closer to lawful good or chaotic good. Okay, are you closer to lawful good or neutral good. Okay, then put down lawful good.") I personally thing playing alignments are a fun dimension to the game. Players can challenge themselves by playing alignments far removed from their own ethos. (I therefore allow my players' characters to be of any alignment. Only once has there been an evil character though.)


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Message 874 of 6030 Reply

Re: Law and Chaos SCA_Bard
7/21/99 11:38 am
Sorry...I know poltics is a bit off-topic, but...

Liberals? Chaotic? The people who want to get your number, put it in a book under either the A) Tax or B) Spend headers? Who want to legislate nearly every aspect of my life? Chaotic?

Not that the conservatives are any better, mind you. They want to legislate different aspects of my life.

Sorry...I'm my father's daughter. Rant over.
SCA_Bard

This Is a Reply to: Msg 872 by Umbratikus

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Message 875 of 6030 Reply

Re: Pictii arguing... Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/21/99 11:49 am
On the contrary, I like to argue(debate) also and appreciate someone similar to myself.

Dave

P.S. I'll argue with you anytime you feel the need.
ha,ha,ha,ha

This Is a Reply to: Msg 870 by Pictii

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Message 876 of 6030 Reply

Re: Evil alignments...Pictii Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/21/99 12:01 pm
I have just had too many problems in the past with players wanting to play evil PC and the rest of the party not finding out until it was too late and the evil PC has either stolen everything the other PC's have or killing the other party members is always a drastic campaign killer. I as the DM can only save their hides so many times. I just think it's better to leave the evil alignments for the bad guys, namely me. It just causes too many problems with the PC's and interaction. Once an evil alignment is found in the group why would the other PC's allow him to stay in the group. It just doesn't make much sense for that to happen under normal circumstances. The only way I see playing an evil party is if the entire adventure/campaign is geared toward evil PCs', which will never happen for a pregenerated adventure. Those kind have to be made up by us the overworked DM's.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 869 by Pictii

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Message 877 of 6030 Reply

Sorry Bard Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/21/99 2:47 pm
but I think you misinterpreted me a little (or I misrepresented myself accidentally). I meant to draw a parallel, not make a political statement. I in no way intended to say that conservatives were lawful and liberals were chaotic.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 874 by SCA_Bard

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Message 878 of 6030 Reply

Playing Evil Lotherio_Giacomo
(27/M/Omaha, NE) 7/21/99 9:06 pm
With alot of talk on playing evil, I thought I'd once again add my two cents.

I don't like evil player characters, but I don't try to limit players by saying they can't play evil aligned characters. On the other hand, I usually explain to my players that I prefer party cooperation over party conflict. If they want to play an evil alignment they better have a reason for wanting to be with the party other then 'to steal their equipment' 'it's a mission from assassin headquarters' or any such thing that will interfere with the rest of the party and their goals.

While it might be hard to think of a way to do this, I usually use Record of Lodoss War (Japanimation for those who haven't seen it) as an example. The thief character who starts out probably around Neutral Evil is the example. The party meets this guy in the dungeons of some good guy fortress and I believe he's sentenced to death. At one point the party leader, a young man (15-18'ish), helps the man out of prison - I believe the fortress is invaded and falling apart and the kid saves his life, telling him he's free do what he wants with no favors in return. For some reason the guy sticks on. I always imagine the guy wants to make up for his bad childhood and the terrible life he's had by looking out for this kid. He could give a rats arse about the rest of the party but sticks with them (the party leader) and does help out a bit. At no point is he trying to take personal possessions of other members or trying to kill them in their sleep (perhaps he has respect for the party leaders friends because they are his friends - an honor among thieves kind of mentality).

I have had players try this, usually the other party members catch on and that character is history. We lost one permanent player this way because he got upset with the treatment his character received. It was a game I was playing in at the time. One of the other characters somehow found out this guy was some kind of assassin who was going to turn us in or kill us all for whatever price. He got bit be a giant posionous spider and, as the poison was seeping into his body, had 2-3 turns to live. A couple of the goody good types suggested trying to suck the poison out while the few who knew shrugged it off in the favor of letting him die. They explained his intentions to those who didn't know. Everyone finally agreed to let him die and the greedy memebers started calling dibs on his equipment as we all watched him die. They guy through a fit and we as players explained it was just what he had planned for us. He couldn't understand that and left.

And one last thing, I'm on a roll here - There should be a top ten list for 'DM signs that a player character is going to turn against other party members' - I submit:
10) He wants to play an assassin

Richie


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Message 879 of 6030 Reply

evil players Birdbone
(M/Washington) 7/22/99 12:51 am
I don't allow my players to be evil because we are all good friends and play a very happy-go-lucky game. My game is similar to fendicaf's in that it is epic-fantasy style.

I go really easy on the PC's because we play to get to know each other better and have fun rather than play for the sake of playing. We start over a lot and make lots of new characters.

Anyway, no player has ever wanted to play an evil character anyway so it doesn't matter so much.


(I'm not very good at explaining what I'm thinking)


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Message 880 of 6030 Reply

Re: Playing Evil...Richie Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/22/99 9:58 am
I would think that some of those people were going against their own alignments in the process of judging this would be assassin. If they had the means to stop or neutralize the poison, they were probably wrong for just letting him die without helping. They shouldn't have done anything that drastic until they had proof of his guilt and then should have maybe taken him to the local authorities for proper trial.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 878 by Lotherio_Giacomo

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Message 881 of 6029 Reply

Evil PC goals Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/22/99 12:16 pm
I think that the most common goal for an evil PC in a predominantly good party is simply for personal gain. This adventuring business tends to be rather lucrative, whether he just takes his share of the loot, or relieves other party members of theirs.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 878 by Lotherio_Giacomo

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Message 882 of 6029 Reply

Top 10 list Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/22/99 12:18 pm
My submission:

The players last character was killed by another party member and his new character is a priest of the god of vengeance. : )

This Is a Reply to: Msg 878 by Lotherio_Giacomo

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Message 883 of 6029 Reply

Assassins in the Midst Lotherio_Giacomo
(27/M/Omaha, NE) 7/22/99 3:27 pm
It wasn't that they just /judged/ him to be an assassin for no reason. If I recall, one thiefly member received word through his organization about this and I believe the assassin character confirmed this to him in character at one point in the campaign. If I'm not mistaken, I believe they (thief and party leader, not many others knew at this point that he was an assassin) had plans to maybe turn it around and see if they could get money for him. It's confusing because I entered shortly before this adventure (the campaign had been going for some time). We were in the middle of nowhere to begin with when he got poisoned, so just taking him to the authorities was pointless (that and most people were of neutral or chaotic alignment). No one had spells or anything to physicall/magically stop the poison. The only real chance was if someone tried to suck it out (the DM at this time was failry easy going and probably would have tried to make any good sounding plan work). I think there was only one lawful person even in the party. Bringing a convicted assassin to court is a death sentance. The situation was discussed for some time, while a couple of members did argue over who got what from his equipment. It eventually moved to out of character, where everyone knew he was an assassin. That got worse, cause we all agreed that we should just let him die. Out of character, everyone else was strongly against party conflict. He was the only one with plans of it.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 880 by Jiriki13

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Message 884 of 6029 Reply

Re: Assassins in the Midst Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/22/99 4:56 pm
Kind of sounds like the assassin deserved to get caught. I would have never admitted to anyone I thought was good that I was an assassin, unless I had a distict advantage over them. Oh well, that's the price of playing evil.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 883 by Lotherio_Giacomo

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Message 885 of 6030 Reply

Re: Not really a reply just sort of ... Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/22/99 11:04 pm
I have had huge problems in several different games, with theives: Player 1 (theif) says in a note (causing no shortage of suspicion around the table) "I try to filch player 2's purse"...usually in a tavern or market place or some other oppourtune moment, Player 1 succeds, and player 2 goes ballistic that sux, how uncool...etc basically nobody really wants to see their character get hurt in any way and we have all seen people react way poorly when their character suffers some unenviable fate.

>>I tend to play my evil guy's with no real malice towards other party members (Except that guy,he hated every one and was damn good at it. mharelick)rather working with the party only as long as the parties actions bring them (my evil guy's)closer to a personal goals. I have played Heroic evil warriors, honor is honor; and somtimes even your enemies deserve better...etc.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 884 by Jiriki13

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Message 886 of 6030 Reply

Re: Not really a reply just sort of ... Lotherio_Giacomo
(27/M/Omaha, NE) 7/23/99 9:33 am
> player 2 goes ballistic that sux, how uncool

Ok, here comes my 2 cents again (I really need to lay off the liquid courage - just kidding, I'm not getting all sloshed and then logging in here to reply).

I haven't really had this problem, usually evil players in my game skip the small change when doing harm to the party (that's why I'm so against it). However, I was playing once with a DM who handled this fairly well. I can't fully explain how it happened, only how he handled it. At one point the thief did pass the note and the DM must have made some off-handed remark indicating he got it (maybe he said "I'm aware of that" or something not directly related to the thief picking someones pocket right now). So no one knew when the thief did this, no one even knew he was trying. The DM plays on for a bit doing whatever we're doing, rolling dice behind his little screen for random encounters or something. Everyone having forgot about the note, the DM roles a die and grins, asking for victim's sheet. That's usually the point when a player face-palms and moans about thieves. Unbeknownest to everyone else, the item was actually stollen by the thief in the party. Then comes the 'What'd I lose' .. 'You'll see when you go to grab it'.

I don't recall any real problems ever occuring between the two characters because of this. I only know that's how the guy handled it cause we're good friends and he told me all about it after it happens (it's one of those things between us, when the other is DM'ing, we know we can share some information with each other without the other using that information during role play).

Richie

This Is a Reply to: Msg 885 by Pictii

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Message 887 of 6030 Reply

Evil will always triumph ... Postmodern1
(M/Mpls MN) 7/23/99 10:47 pm
(because good is dumb!) - Dark Helmet

I have disallowed CE and NE PCs in my current game based on some of the same probelms the rest of the gang has brought up. I've had players use these align's as justification for killing other players, stealing from them and "whichever way the paryt's going, I'm going the other way", none of which are conducive to the heroic high fantasy I style my game in. Granted, there were some problem players involved in that, but I figured it was better to remove the temptation from the beginning. Any thoughts on that?

At the same time, we have a LE mage who is the damn definition of the alignment and plays it GREAT all the time. The difference: he doesn't disrupt the flow of the game by causing trouble between a group of friends who only get a chance to get together once a month to do something they love. Am I way off base? I feel somewhat tryannical after reading through some of your folk's commentary ...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 886 by Lotherio_Giacomo

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Message 888 of 6030 Reply

Re: Not really a reply just sort of ... mharelick
7/24/99 4:18 pm
Well, thats roleplaying. When I played theives I have stolen stuff from players. Unless of course, we are all together in mortal danger, then we need each other to survive.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 885 by Pictii

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Message 889 of 6030 Reply

Re: Not really a reply just sort of ... dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 7/26/99 2:30 pm
*sigh*

Alright. I can't stand this anylonger. I HAVE to comment. You see, one of my main characters is a thief/scout. She is of CG alignmant, and I play her accordingly. Sure, she steals, but not from friends. That is taboo, as you might have to rely on that person in battle. "Oh, you stole from me, so I am not going to help you defeat that black dragon." Before you say it, yeah, I know. That scenerio is extreme. It was meant to be, to make a point. The point being, if you want to have alignments in a game, sit with the players when they are making up a character, and help them to choose accordingly. We are meant to be the guides in this game. If a player has a problem, then you need to "guide" them to the answer they seek.

My two cents. Plus...

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 888 by mharelick

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Message 890 of 6030 Reply

Re: Evil will always triumph ... Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/26/99 2:59 pm
The way I see it, if having evil PCs in your game disrupts the game, disallow evil PCs. I allow evil PCs because it has yet to cause a problem. It is your game, run it as you see fit. If you are making a decision to improve the quality of gameplay, and it works, then how can the (majority of) the players complain?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 887 by Postmodern1

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Message 891 of 6029 Reply

Return to the Keep on the Borderlands Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/27/99 10:43 pm
Well I have finished reading/studying the updated, and old versions of B2 The Keep on the Borderlands. Much of it is the same just revamped for 2nd ed. However there are a few new surprises (one of which is particularly nasty for those all to inquisitive but not too cautious adventurers). The maps (inside cover) are in full color now (yippee) instead of non repro blue. The encounters and main stories are done well and there is enough stuff here to make a few nights of gaming very interesting indeed. In all I am not going to say if it is worth the $$$ I paid for it but I can't wait to spring it on my group of players brought up on a stable diet of 2nd edition only adventures


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Message 892 of 6029 Reply

Re: Return to the Keep on the Borderland Pictii
(33/M/PA) 7/28/99 12:02 am
The Keep is such a fav o mine, I may (when and if I ever have money for silliness again) have to pick the up new keep.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 891 by Danduin_

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Message 893 of 6029 Reply

Re: Return to the Keep on the Borderland Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 7/28/99 8:15 am
I also have fond memories of The Keep on the Borderlands. It was the first module I ever had, packed in there with the (first) red book D&D Basic Set. It was also one of the few early modules to feature a town setting and wilderness. Even the nameless characters of the Priest and the Castellan have become larger-than-life figures in my personal RPG pantheon.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 892 by Pictii

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Message 894 of 6030 Reply

more Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 7/28/99 10:47 am

I did a side by side comparison. This adventure (the new one) is set 20 years in the future (real far fetched eh?) pleas e excuse any typos heree I have a 1yr old onm my lap as I type. THings have changed in the area and things are happening
that will NOT be good for anyone nearby. So ggwhilkst the (put girl down) whilst tht esetting is the same the game is very much different. THe module itself really *&&^%%$$# me off because there are a lot of typos and errors in it (personal peeve o' mine)


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Message 895 of 6030 Reply

Single PC Adventures basqueltr
(36/M/Kansas) 7/28/99 11:02 am
Here is my problem. I used to DM for a group of 4 players, but, for several reasons, I'm down to just one. Designing adventures for one player is difficult to say the least. Does anyone have any suggestions to help in this problem?

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Message 896 of 6030 Reply

Re: Single PC Adventures SCA_Bard
7/28/99 11:18 am
You might let your player have more than once character, or perhaps send an NPC or two with him. As long as the NPCs aren't decision makers (they are hirelings, youths looking up to the PC, or just so dumb the PC won't *let* them make decisions), you can increase the capabilites of this one-player party.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 895 by basqueltr

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Message 897 of 6029 Reply

Re: Single PC Adventures shinto_gaijin
7/28/99 11:26 am
this is tricky .. the best way I have found is to have the player play more than one PC .. it forces them to do some mind twisting and thought-shifting usually only reserved for DM's .. especially if they get separated (and one PC knows things that the other PC needs to know) .. it can add a new dimension to role playing (but is not recommended for novices)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 896 by SCA_Bard

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Message 898 of 6030 Reply

Re: Evil will always triumph ... shinto_gaijin
7/28/99 11:33 am
I have been on all three sides of this coin .. evil PC in a mostly-good party .. good PC with another evil PC in the party .. DM having fun watching the evil PC and good PC scheme against each other .. in the first case, I learned that it helps to play only with very good friends with a great sense of humor .. in the second, when it all works out for the best, the ends justify the means, the evil PC can stick around as long as we can still trust him .. in the third, great friends, great sense of humor, excellent role playing .. creating an adventure (and eventually, a campaign) where all the PC's have a goal and work together to achieve it is the challenge I welcome and enjoy as a DM

This Is a Reply to: Msg 890 by Umbratikus

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Message 899 of 6029 Reply

Re: Single PC Adventures Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 7/28/99 4:52 pm
This has never been a problem for me. I have done many single PC adventures. The secret is designing the adventures around the PC. Is he a thief? Design adventures that challenge his thieving abilities. Is he a fighter? Make the adventure combat oriented, etc. If you write your own adventures, this shouldn't be too difficult. Like mentioned before, have him joined by an NPC now and again if it fits with your story-line. The two-PC party I am DMing now is big on trained war-dogs for extra combat muscle.

Have trouble coming up with ideas? Sit down with your player. Look over his background. Any ideas there worth exploring, old nemeses perhaps? Ask you player what he wants his character to accomplish. Does he want a particular magic item? Do you have a rich gameworld he can interact with? Brainstorm with your player and then you can design adventures that you know you will both enjoy.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 895 by basqueltr

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Message 900 of 6029 Reply

Re: Single PC Adventures Ellowan
(26/M/Redmond, WA) 7/28/99 8:38 pm
I would hazard a guess and say that I've run and played in more single PC adventures than party adventures. A lot of the solutions presented so far, while valid, revolve around the idea of creating a pseudo-party to accompany the player's character. As Umbratikus pointed out, this doesn't need to be the case. Think of how much fantasy fiction revolves around the concept of a single person. One adventurer doing his or her own thing occurs at least as often as tales about groups of people. These can certainly be a source of inspiration.
Solo adventures are a great opportunity for players to really flesh out and appreciate their characters. They can play their personality to the hilt, without having to worry about the interpersonal relationships of teamwork. They are great for self-esteem too, because if a single character can complete a mission, they get all of the glory.
A solo can be filled with NPC's. This is best for urban and court settings. Instead of making the NPC's party members, just set them up to interact with the player. You can develop a great scenario rich in intrigue and hidden agendas, or filled with emotional relationships and dramas. The PC will probably never miss not being part of a party.
Alternatively, you can go for the opposite. The PC alone, in the wilderness, having only himself to depend on for survival in adverse conditions. You can have a great, rousing adventure without a single monster or animal even!
This isn't to say that you should completely spurn the opportunity to put the PC into a party-like setting. It's just that you don't have to look at that as the only solution. A great solo party scenario is the one with the single travelling companion. You can take this opportunity to really develop an NPC's personality and his relationship with the PC. Starting out as more-or-less amiable travelling companions, the course of the adventure could examine the evolution of their relationship to one of close friendship and trust, mutual respect, disgruntlement, rivalry, perhaps bitter hatred. Alternatively, the NPC could be a foil for the PC.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 899 by Umbratikus

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Message 901 of 6030 Reply

Re: Single PC Adventures Birdbone
(M/Washington) 7/29/99 1:39 am
My party is also into war dogs. Animals are a great way to add combat power to a party without troublesome NPC's who just follow you around and do what you do. Finding a dog in a memorable way also gives it a lot more personality than buying it - like maybe it is a stray or wild dog stuck in a bear trap and the character will rescue it (ideas like this off the top of my head aren't too great though...a little thought would produce more plausible circumstances).

I suppose this other idea is a stretch but if the character is a druid or ranger maybe wild animals might help him during hostile encounters.


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Message 902 of 6030 Reply

Thanks for the help. basqueltr
(36/M/Kansas) 7/29/99 12:24 pm
Thanks to all of you who posted replies. With your help, I've come up with a new outlook for his PC and I think he will enjoy it, too. At least until we can locate more players. Thanks again.


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Message 903 of 6030 Reply

magic point book? Birdbone
(M/Washington) 7/29/99 7:52 pm
Does anyone know what book it is that has the magic point system in it?

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Message 904 of 6030 Reply

Re: magic point book? Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 7/30/99 8:06 am
The book your looking for is the Player's Option: Spells & Magic rule book.

Dave


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Message 905 of 6029 Reply

Top ten signs Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 8/1/99 8:56 pm
That you pissed off the villagers.

1. The "interesting new stew" you've been served at the inn smells suspiciously like sewage.
2. One ripe apple at the market costs more than your last spellbook.
3.They're building a gallows outside your room at the inn. They try to tell you that it is "modern art".
4. One of them asks you for a donation to the "Hire some thugs to kill the adventurers fund"
5. Someone glued a spike to your saddle.
6. At bed time your goose down pillow explodes. The innkeeper says that the pillow was made from the feathers of very angry geese.
7. People keep providing you with gifts of horses, and maps out of town.
8. The Mayor declares a special "Murder of foreigners is no longer illeagal" day in your honour.
9. Arrows keep appearing at your feet. Local villagers shake their head, and claim that they are fast growing weeds.
10. The villagers hire a band of trolls to rid their town of adventurers

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Message 906 of 6030 Reply

looking for advice for a new game world crazyj316_01
8/2/99 10:08 am
I am creating a new game world for my players and also changing the core rules a little bit. Anyone who can help me out would be appreciated. E-mail me at crazyj316_01@yahoo.com I also have some great ideas to make players get into the game.

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Message 907 of 6030 Reply

Top ten signs Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 8/2/99 5:47 pm
That your DM is too hard

10. Regular rabbits are gone. They have been replaced by the killer rabbit from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
9. Trees can, and often do, explode in huge, 20d6 hit die fireballs. No explanation is ever offered.
8. Your mage has an argument with a local spice merchant. Finally, annoyed to the breaking point, he casts CHARM on the merchant. Sadly the merchant is a retired 22nd lvl elven mage. Shaking your head, you reach for the statistic rolling dice once again . . .
7. Somehow you've done it. Your party has slain Emberburn, the most fearsome and powerful dragon the DM has ever created. The DM stares at you in shock, still staring at the "1" he rolled for the dragon's last attack. After poking him in the arm for 5 minutes, chanting "horde. . . horde. . ." over & over, he looks up at you the look of surprise fades and an evil grin replaces it. "As it happens", the DM says with glee, "the dragon had cast *Project Image* just before the party entered the cave. . .
6.Most peasants have 20HD and many know the *Power word kill* spell.
5.There are lethal traps on EVERY latrine door
4. YOur 15th lvl thief just got the snot kicked out of him by an 8 yr old girl.
3. Your fighter gets a bit tipsy and pinches the barmaid's bum. The barmaid pulls out her bow and arrow of *fighter slaying*
2. You are playing Darksun but still use only Method I for rolling characters.

1. You have been playing for 3 weeks and have 76 dead characters.

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Message 908 of 6030 Reply

Re: Top ten signs dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 8/2/99 7:45 pm
Man, that was funny!!!! I think I might be able to use some of those, too!!!!!!!

Dragn

This Is a Reply to: Msg 905 by Danduin_

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Message 909 of 6030 Reply

Magical Items Mozart_Smozart
(13/M/N/A) 8/2/99 8:53 pm
I downloaded a near treasure trove of magical items (including weapons) from the TSR/Wizards web site. If anyone wants them, e-mail me at mozart_smozart@yahoo.com. anyone who pokes fun at my name doesn't get it!


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Message 910 of 6030 Reply

Re: Top ten signs Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 8/2/99 9:14 pm
I have more but I think that two postings in as many days is enough! Look for later installments

This Is a Reply to: Msg 908 by dragn_lady

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Message 911 of 6030 Reply

Re: Top ten signs Pictii
(34/M/PA) 8/3/99 7:24 am
You are one funny guy.I enjoyed your top ten lists.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 910 by Danduin_

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Message 912 of 6029 Reply

Aarakocra pictures mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 8/4/99 6:32 pm
Does anyone have a url for a aarakcra or birdman?

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Message 913 of 6029 Reply

The URL where those top-tens came from mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 8/4/99 6:33 pm
http://www.fazed.on.ca/tryll/top-ten.htm

mkinjubhy


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Message 914 of 6030 Reply

And again Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 8/4/99 6:36 pm
Top ten signs that Your DM is too easy

10. The gods in your campaign worship the players
09. The DM uses a d4 to roll monster attacks
08. The party is dividing treasure. The fighter says "Ok, who wants the Staff of the Magi? Anybody? Anyone at all? Ok, we leave it leaning against the tree stump."
07. Bubba the Mighty, the most powerful mage in all the world, has a soft spot for fast talking halflings. Instead of casting meteor swarm and annihilating the party, he decides to teleport away.
06. All the city's guards are first level, and are easily spooked by the flamefinger cantrip.
05. Any major city has at least one "Ressurect-o-matic" on every street corner.
04. Your cleric is on a first name basis with his god because of all the times the god has had to pop in and save the cleric's butt.
03. The phrase "O geez what do I need with another +5 vorpal longsword" is used during gameplay.
02. Your party sneaks into the lich's secret dungeons. Luckily for them, the lich has been born-again, and sent all his undead minions off to do charity work for the poor.
01. The red dragon suddenly develops a chest cold, and can not use it's breath weapon.

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Message 915 of 6030 Reply

Berserker top ten mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 8/4/99 7:38 pm
Hey Danduin did you read the one about the Berserkers?


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Message 916 of 6029 Reply

Stories mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 8/4/99 7:40 pm
Hey, im starting a stories section on my website.

If you want one on it, send an email to mkinjubhy@yahoo.com with the subject line saying either AD&D story or non AD&D story. Names/email address will appear (unless you dont want it to)

m


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Message 917 of 6030 Reply

Re: Stories Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 8/4/99 8:38 pm
Do you mean made up stories or stories about characters we've played or are playing. I have some interesting stories about a certain fremlin mage I play named Katinflas "The Masterful". He leads(at least he thinks he's the leader) of a group called "The Masterful Hand". Currently our group is only three full time adventurers strong, but we are trying to recruit more hardy fellows to right the wrongs of the world and to stay between Katinflas and the ememy, who ever that might be.

Dave

Long live the Masterful Hand.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 916 by mkinjubhy

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Message 918 of 6030 Reply

Re: Berserker top ten Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 8/4/99 10:00 pm
Nope



Tell us all about it

This Is a Reply to: Msg 915 by mkinjubhy

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Message 919 of 6030 Reply

MAGIC ITEMS Mozart_Smozart
(13/M/N/A) 8/7/99 4:23 pm
could everyone who sent me e-mails asking for the items, please send them again? I deleted everything in my inbox, then i realized i deleted the e-mail addresses.


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Message 920 of 6030 Reply

whatever (was stories) mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 8/9/99 10:39 am
I have no preference , what ever stories you want to have up, you can, the more the merrier. As a matter of fact im going to work on my site right now.
m.


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Message 921 of 6030 Reply

TOP TENS, NEW ONES (I THINK) mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 8/9/99 10:43 am
Top Ten Things Your Berserker Would Never Say

If this wasn't such a nice inn, I'd kick your ass.
Do these boots go with this tunic?
Sometimes, I just want to be held.
Couldn't we just talk this over? Violence never solved anything.
Swords and alcohol don't mix.
Gee, I'd like to help you guys hunt down that rogue dragon, but Lance and I are going shopping for curtains this weekend.
Thank you (as well as "please", "excuse me", and "so sorry, I would appear to have stabbed you in the stomach with my broad sword").
I think mages are the coolest.
Wait a minute guys. Maybe we should think this over first.
Ewwwww! Blood!

Top Ten Signs You Just Met the Main Bad Guy

Your assassin henchman just wet his pants.
The ancient red dragon you had just been fighting says "S**t, I'm out of here!" and flies away.
The bad guy just laughed evilly, and seven birds fell dead out of the sky.
The DM chuckles, and says "I spent seven hours rolling this guy up".
The bad guy burps, and a human toe flies out of his mouth.
The DM plays a tape of scary organ music, and starts talking like Boris Karloff.
The bad guy is dressed all in black, but has one of those little yellow smiley face buttons (DMs can be sooo sarcastic).
You point your wand of fire at him, and it melts.
The bad guy keeps Elminster in a cage, and occasionally pokes him with a fork.
After the battle, the only Player Character to survive is the one that stayed back in town with the flu.

Top Ten Spells That Never Made It

Berman's Death-to-the-Caster.
Power word, fart.
Gelatinous Shell (immediately surrounds the caster in a gelatinous cube).
Safe fall (like feather fall, but makes you weigh as much as a 12 ton bank vault).
Polymorph Udder (a highly specialized spell which only affects female cattle).
Stinking Klaus (summons a fat, smelly German business man, who chases your enemies while eating an Oktoberfest sausage and belching).
Magnetskin (a variation of stoneskin - makes the caster's skin magnetic, giving all metallic weapons a +10 bonus to hit).
Meatier Swarm (large chunks of ground chuck rain to the ground).
Polymorph any Omelet.
Fireballs (sets the target's testicles on fire - very effective, but a bit too kinky for TSR).

Top Ten Signs You Play Too Much ADnD
Someone says "Why do you have all those numbers tattooed on your hand?", and you reply "Those aren't tattoos, they're die imprints."
Your elven fighter has had sex within the last six years - and you haven't.
You decide to play a zombie, just so you and your character can have the same skin color.
You've been surviving so long on Doritos, Coke, and pizza that your body now contains more plastic than your dice.
You can recite, verbatim, every single rule from the DMG….but you can't remember how many kids you have.
You sign personal correspondences with your character's name.
After months of work, you have made up the entire dwarven language - words, rules of vocabulary, the whole lot. You are bilingual, and can now speak fluid dwarven. Your friends stare at you strangely, and no one will sit on the same side of the table as you.
Drug addict and alcoholic friends of yours often stop you to say "Dude, get a grip".
Your "If I won the lottery" plans involve creating: (a) a really cool AD&D room, or (b) hiring actors to play monsters so that you and your friends can play AD&D for real.
You'd rather get a natural 18 when rolling character statistics than win the lottery.

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Message 922 of 6030 Reply

Need stuff again... mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 8/9/99 11:04 am
Hey, does anyone have other stuff I could put on my website?
mkinjubhy@yahoo.com


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Message 923 of 6029 Reply

Re: TOP TENS, NEW ONES (I THINK) Vlademir1
(28/M/USA) 8/9/99 11:03 pm
Fireballs *chuckle* i've seen it done in game
better chance of getting the natural 18 00 than winning the lotto
and finaly I have a friend who is goth and wears a MR. SMILEYSMILE, on his crotch

This Is a Reply to: Msg 921 by mkinjubhy

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Message 924 of 6029 Reply

Game Starting Vlademir1
(28/M/USA) 8/10/99 10:33 pm
Im starting a by email ad&d game, please join at
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/playbyemail
thanks Vlademir Khan, the emperor of Velgeax


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Message 925 of 6030 Reply

Re: Need stuff again...MKINJUBHY Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 8/11/99 2:10 pm
I have some new monsters (actually incorporated from video games and movies and such), but they are in CR2 format. I don't have them in a text file or anything. If you could use them I'll send them to you.
I will also work on some stories, but most will be about characters of mine that I currently play or have played.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 922 by mkinjubhy

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Message 926 of 6030 Reply

Re: Need stuff again...MKINJUBHY mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 8/11/99 10:59 pm
Excellent, thanks no one else really has anything they want to offer to the public, and stories are excellent. Especially about characters that have/are being played


M. :)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 925 by Jiriki13

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Message 927 of 6030 Reply

Re: Need stuff again...MKINJUBHY SCA_Bard
8/12/99 10:33 am
Could you post the URL so potential donors can see where their stuff is going?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 926 by mkinjubhy

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Message 928 of 6030 Reply

YOU WANT STORIES???? dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 8/12/99 7:36 pm
I have literally notebooks FULL of story lines, twists, fights, feelings, etc... I'm the officail secretary of our gaming troup, so let me know... I'll need to go through it all, but I'm sure I can come up with something...just tell me what you are looking for... I might have it!!

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 926 by mkinjubhy

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Message 929 of 6030 Reply

I am the new guy lwilson243
8/13/99 11:17 am
Hello, I am new to this club and new to DMing. I have a few friends who started playing when I did but there always making there characters much to strong and they load WAY too much stuff in there packs, just more then they can carry. What do I do? I just got the Players Handbook and the Dungeon Masters Guide and have not had the time to read them.
Other than that I hope to learn as much as I can in this club and happy DMing. :)


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Message 930 of 6029 Reply

Re: I am the new guy Lord_Ixius
(20/M/Orange Park, FL) 8/13/99 5:11 pm
One word: Encumbrance. Look it up in the PH.

/~^*^~\
Lord Ixius
of Canston Manor
and
Keeper of the Silver Rose

This Is a Reply to: Msg 929 by lwilson243

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Message 931 of 6030 Reply

Re: I am the new guy fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 8/13/99 7:00 pm
Rule #1 The only "Rules" are the ones the DM makes/allows.


Suggestion #1 Start off with just the basics and add to them as you get comfortable.


Sage Advice
The Blind Sage of Elversult

This Is a Reply to: Msg 929 by lwilson243

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Message 932 of 6029 Reply

Re: YOU WANT STORIES???? YES !!!! mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 8/13/99 8:49 pm
Sure ill take whatever, plots, charcters (for a hall of fame), ideas, new monsters, spells, items, planes, WHATEVER i just have to request it sent to mkinjubhy@yahoo.com

thanks,
m.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 928 by dragn_lady

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Message 933 of 6030 Reply

Re: I am the new guy Birdbone
(M/Washington) 8/14/99 1:06 am
Don't let the players tell you what they are going to do. Let them tell you what they want to do and you decide what happens. If you don't want them to buy something then the shop doesn't have it. If they already have it then maybe a pickpocket hit them in town.
You should control the creation process too. If you don't want strong chracters make them roll with method I or something.
So just remember that you are in total control and you can make or unmake any rules you want (but being unfair or mean won't help much, like at least roll to see if the PC could detect the pickpocket).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 929 by lwilson243

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Message 934 of 6030 Reply

On-Line Store Bane1975
(24/M/Central Kentucky) 8/15/99 4:41 pm
One of my friends is thinking about opening an online store that deals in comics, Magic, and Ad&d stuff, I was wondering if any of you have homepages if you would be interested in putting a link to it when he gets it up and running?


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Message 935 of 6030 Reply

Re: I am the new guy crazyj316_01
8/16/99 9:59 am
I agree that a DM should have total control over the world. However, I believe that being too strict limits the players imagination. Players can bring really neat stuff to an adventure when they are really intersed. E-mail at crazyj316_01@yahoo.com

This Is a Reply to: Msg 933 by Birdbone

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Message 936 of 6029 Reply

Re: I am the new guy Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 8/16/99 10:12 am
I think that all the advice given to you so far is excellent advice, but I find it would be more preferable if you played and learned the majority of the rules that way first. I feel that nobody should start out DM'ing before they have played the game and learn the rules from that side of the house first. I didn't even attempt to DM until after about 4-5 years of playing and then only when it was necessary due to lack of a DM and I was the most experience of the group that wanted me to DM. I went through some tough times those first few months trying to learn some of the new rules and decide which ones I wanted to use and which to not use.
I think the best case scenario would be to find someone that has been DM'ing for awhile and one that DM's in a style that you and your friends like. If finding someone that has DM experience isn't an option, then the only thing I can say is do alot of research. I would stick with the basic rules for the first couple months at least and then add a rule or two as you become comfortable with what your already playing with.

Hope that helps.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 929 by lwilson243

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Message 937 of 6030 Reply

Re: I am the new guy Lord_Ixius
(20/M/Orange Park, FL) 8/16/99 3:57 pm
What i need to do is send you my DM's Guide. It's 20 pages long and full of very helpful tips, info and guideline for new DMs just starting out. It's sections include; Getting Started, Designing Campaigns and Adventures, Taking and Keeping Control, Creative Campaigning, and Troubleshooting. This guide is an accumulation of years of DMing and playing experience. However, it is also written with the idea that DM's have already the Player's Handbook and DMG. But at any rate, I'll send it to you if you like.

/~^*^~\
Lord Ixius
of Canston Manor
and
Keeper of the Silver Rose

This Is a Reply to: Msg 935 by crazyj316_01

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Message 938 of 6029 Reply

Re: On-Line Store Vlademir1
(28/M/USA) 8/16/99 8:27 pm
Post the URl when its up and running, if its good i might
although most banners like that are suposed to pay a little for each hit they provide

This Is a Reply to: Msg 934 by Bane1975

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Message 939 of 6029 Reply

Re: I am the new guy Vlademir1
(28/M/USA) 8/16/99 8:54 pm
I realy agree with all the things posted prior to this. Also realize its never easy to DM, as GYgax stated in the first ed DMG your players will push at every chance for their own benifit which if you give in to will destroy the game and wreak all kinds of havoc on your world, not the least of which will be economical
.
and, yes, i learned this all the hard way
in fact, you might want to spend the extra money on the core rules 2 CD-ROM and possibly check out
http://www.netrpg.com
they have some useful programs and some netbooks for when you are a bit more experienced. also read some books on/of: Fantacy Fiction (esp tolkein and terry brooks) medival history and archetecture, economics esp the effects of supply and demand on cost, sociology, Sciences, psychology, religion, linguistics, physiology, the demons from the first ed monster manual, medival warfare esp tactics and weapons, nearly anything your world could benifit from and you should also realy just realize that the dm is the final athority for the game, not anybody or anything else especialy the dice just because the dice say it happens dosnt mean it does (and visa versa)
i should point out reading enough to create a world that is realy accurate should take only 30 to 60 years meanwhile do what fells right to you, and read your books starting with the DMG PH and MM then what ever you say can happen in your world can and still live as AD&D (such as a party meating Vageta from DBZ, now that was fun to role play)
Vlademir Khan, Emperor of Velgeax and soon the entire multiverse *maniachal laughter*

This Is a Reply to: Msg 929 by lwilson243

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Message 940 of 6030 Reply

Game Starting Vlademir1
(28/M/USA) 8/16/99 8:56 pm
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/playbyemail

This Is a Reply to: Msg 924 by Vlademir1

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Message 941 of 6030 Reply

Wow this club is GREAT! lwilson243
8/18/99 12:53 am
Well, all the info you all have given me have helped a great deal. There are some thins you all should know about me, I am 14, I home school and I have a reading level of a collage student (I think). I purchased Core Rules 2.0 at Best Buy for $40, the comic book shop was selling it for $65. My grandmother got me the Players Handbook and the DMG. In the last year I have read The Hobbit X2, The fellowship of the ring, The two towers, The return of the king. I love all of J.R.R. Tolkiens works, he was a great writer! I have also read DragonLance: Heroes: The Legend of Huma. Oh I almost left out The Sword of Shanara by Terry Brooks. I am in the middle of DragonLance: Heroes: StormBlade. The bottom line, I love to read fantasy and all other kinds of books. I have been interested in the middle ages since I was seven. Well that about covers it all on me. I have a few friends over this weekend to play AD&D, they also have Core Rules 2.0 so I am trying to get them to read the Players Handbook.
I will finish reading the Players Handbook later this week, and then I will start reading the DMG.

Well fare all ye well and happy DMing :-) Lwilson243

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Message 942 of 6030 Reply

Re: Wow this club is GREAT! Birdbone
(M/Washington) 8/18/99 2:04 am
Good thing you told me all that stuff about you cause I was wondering "what's that guy's reading level and where did he buy the core rules?".

This Is a Reply to: Msg 941 by lwilson243

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Message 943 of 6029 Reply

whitewizards crazyj316_01
(17/M/Illinois) 8/18/99 9:56 am
I was a member of the white wizards of the realm club and all they talked about was pokemon. So I said something and they kicked me out! I think that is a club advertises that it is D and D oriented, then it should be. Not one member that I met had ever played dungeons and dragons.


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Message 944 of 6030 Reply

Re: whitewizards Birdbone
(M/Washington) 8/19/99 1:58 pm
Of course, in your message here you neglected to mention that what you said to get kicked out was "you retard! why don't you get alife!".

But don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I read all the posts of that club and they are pretty funny (in a stupid way).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 943 by crazyj316_01

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Message 945 of 6030 Reply

Re: I am the new guy Pictii
(34/M/PA) 8/20/99 6:45 am
Players get too carried away and would walk arouund carrying a battle ship if you let them while that is imaginative it is silly and not at all practical.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 935 by crazyj316_01

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Message 946 of 6030 Reply

Re: whitewizards crazyj316_01
(17/M/Illinois) 8/20/99 10:06 am
the reason that I didn't mention my little comment was because I didn't want to piss any members of this club off if they were members of the white wizards. I really was hoping that it would be a usefull club like this one is. I'm glad that you agree with my opinion of the white wizards

This Is a Reply to: Msg 944 by Birdbone

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Message 947 of 6029 Reply

to Dm's everywhere crazyj316_01
(17/M/Illinois) 8/20/99 10:09 am
I have some really neat ideas regarding running adventures and have recieved help from another member. If any new Dm's would like some advice or help building a game world, e-mail me at crazyj316_01@yahoo.com. or post a message.

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Message 948 of 6030 Reply

AD&D 3rd Edition the_mood_dragon
(28/F/South Florida) 8/21/99 11:24 pm
Fellow DMs...could someone please give any information, comments, criticism, etc on the 3rd edition due out this year. From a gaming club newsletter I recieved, I was made aware that the 3rd Ed P.H. should be out in Aug...the D.M.G. in Sept...and the M.M. in Oct. I attempted to go to the web site provided (www.3rdedition.com) but was unable to access the site from my computer at the time...I would appreciate any info everyone else could get on the matter.

personal opinion...I do fear that this may be more harmful than helpful for new gamers and DMs...sometimes too much "help" takes away from the creativity of the DM and gives "Rules Lawyers" too much fodder for their disruptive arguments.

Thank You for any help,

Laura,

The Mood Dragon

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Message 949 of 6030 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition Lord_Ixius
(20/M/Orange Park, FL) 8/22/99 1:02 am
Well howdy, Miss Laura! Fancy meeting you here

This Is a Reply to: Msg 948 by the_mood_dragon

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Message 950 of 6030 Reply

Map Maker? Bane1975
(24/M/Central Kentucky) 8/22/99 9:47 am
Does anyone know where I can find a good map maker?


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Message 951 of 6030 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition the_mood_dragon
(28/F/South Florida) 8/22/99 12:22 pm
My dear Lord Ixius, I fear us meeting in public this way...what would the peasants say?



This Is a Reply to: Msg 949 by Lord_Ixius

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Message 952 of 6030 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition Lord_Ixius
(20/M/Orange Park, FL) 8/22/99 1:28 pm
Well, Huma did it, and Gilthanas tried.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 951 by the_mood_dragon

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Message 953 of 6029 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 8/22/99 1:35 pm
DAMN IT! Those money-grubbing bastards at WOTC have done what TSR vowed never to do. They ARE releasing a #rd edition PHB, DMG, and MM next year. There are a lot of changes. Some good, some ok, and some i think just suck!

But thats my humble opinion!

The Blind Sage of Elversult


PS. get the FAQ's at http://www.wizards.com/3e/faq.asp

This Is a Reply to: Msg 951 by the_mood_dragon

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Message 954 of 6029 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition Danduin_
(~30/M/In front of a computer) 8/22/99 4:51 pm
I had a big long post about this but I am posting this instead.

IT IS YOUR CHOICE!

Everything I need to play is on a shelf, in duplicate, and in several editions.

I, for one, say no thank you. I have spent far too much money to re-invest yet again.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 948 by the_mood_dragon

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Message 955 of 6030 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition Postmodern1
(M/Mpls MN) 8/22/99 6:18 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with Danduin ... there is no way in the not-included-in-the-3rd-edition Nine Hells I'm spending more money on another reprint of the same rules.
I looked at the link someone posted about the 3rd Ed and man, it just bummed me out .....

How about D&D Basic? Anyone still play that? I've got both of the boxed sets somewhere around here ...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 954 by Danduin_

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Message 956 of 6029 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 8/22/99 11:10 pm
I second that emotion. I have spent way too much money to just start all over again. I'll do just fine with what I've got.

Katinflas "The Masterful"(Soon to be fremlin archmage of Alaghon.) hehehe

This Is a Reply to: Msg 954 by Danduin_

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Message 957 of 6030 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition mkinjubhy
(n/t/M/wherever you go there yo) 8/23/99 12:31 am
Crap, here i am recently spending money nto start playing the game, by the time my friends campaign is on ill have to go get the books again.!!


Magmar, mkinjubhy

This Is a Reply to: Msg 953 by fendicaf

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Message 958 of 6030 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition fendicaf
(33/M/Fitchburg MA) 8/23/99 12:36 am
I for one WILL NOT buy the third edition. I don't need it and don't plan on ever needing it.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 954 by Danduin_

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Message 959 of 6030 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 8/23/99 8:51 am
I'm reserving judgement on the 3rd edition until I get a good look at it. However, I probably will not invest in a new edition, unless, of course, they release it on CD-ROM like they did the second edition. I may spend $40 for all core books in electronic format. I still use some of my 1st edition materials in my 2nd edition game. As long as I can do the same with 3rd edition that would be a point in their favor.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 958 by fendicaf

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Message 960 of 6030 Reply

Re: Map Maker? Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 8/23/99 8:53 am
I like Profantasy's Campaign Cartographer. It is a little cumbersome to use, but the results are outstanding. I even make full color battle maps (25mm scale for miniatures use) and get plenty of oohs and ahhs from my players all the time. The scaled down version that comes with CR2 is okay, too, but the full version is great (although pricey).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 950 by Bane1975

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Message 961 of 6029 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition crazyj316_01
(17/M/Illinois) 8/23/99 10:07 am
I for one will not buy any third edition books unless there are major changes to the system to make it worth buying. I enjoy 2nd edition for it's idea that the dm can make whatever up. I see no need, however, to buy new rulebooks when the game is fine the way it is

This Is a Reply to: Msg 957 by mkinjubhy

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Message 962 of 6030 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 8/23/99 10:58 am
Umbratikus, Sage and I took a look at the page from WotC conserning the 3rd edition... In my humble opinion, it sucks. The changes sound like they are combining Magic game and D&D....oh, it's also no longer going to be called AD&D.....just D&D....though, not one iota of rules or ideas from D&D at all. I for another shall not nor ever will buy the 3rd edition. The only way it will be aloud in any game I am in is if I am not DM, and it's not my house.

In case you can't tell, I DO NOT like the new 3rd edition. Maybe I'm just too old and set in my ways.... who knows...

Although there is one plus....they are bringing back Greyhawk...

Dragn_lady

This Is a Reply to: Msg 959 by Umbratikus

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Message 963 of 6030 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 8/23/99 11:55 am
Actually there are a lot of plusses. There are also some minuses. What is a plus is it looks like they have simplified a lot of the more cumbersome rules without taking away from the game (apparently). They consolidated the method of rolling up characters to one method (4d6 - drop the lowest die) which is how I have always done it since '78. They have removed level limits on demi-human races, something many of us have been doing all along (not me, though). One big minus for me is that they have removed ALL restrictions for demi-humans including what classes they can be. Any race can be any class. They even admitted IN THEIR OWN WORDS that there will be gnome mage paladins!!! What's up with that????

also, it looks like, to convert my campaign to 3rd ed, I would need at least 4 books. The 3ePHB, The 3eDMG, the 3ePsionics book (since I include psionics in my campaign), and the 3eHigh Level Campaigns book (because my campaigns sometimes go over 20th level (although rarely)). If I were to go 3e, I might skip the 3eMM. I have more monster books than I know what to do with and they should be easily converted, and the 3eManual of the Planes, since I have almost every Planescape product (something they are discontinuing).

They also mentioned a Conversion Book, to help those 2nd ed players to convert to the new rules. They don't specify, but I would expect this to be free like the "Fast Play Rules" were. I also understand the dropping of the word "Advanced" from the title. If there is no longer a Basic D&D, there is nothing to be Advanced from.

Over all, my jury is still out on the Third Edition. Especially since they are backwards compatible (with minor adjustments). At $20 per book, they aren't prohibitively expensive, even less expensive than the current books, but I've already racked up an $80 bill with the four books listed above. I will probably buy the 3ePHB just to give it an honest read (I'll borrow it, though, if I can).

P.S. Vive le Greyhawk!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 962 by dragn_lady

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Message 964 of 6030 Reply

DM's Guild from Lord Ixius Riacon_exile
8/23/99 12:18 pm
I read your Reply to I'm the new guy and was hopping thay you could (and will) send me a copy. I'm in need of some behind the seans info on DMing. If you could I would be most greatfull.

---¥¤Lord Riecon¤¥---

This Is a Reply to: Msg 937 by Lord_Ixius

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Message 965 of 6030 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 8/23/99 5:42 pm
If what you say is true about taking away demi-human level limits and class restrictions, then the humans will be sorely pressed to continue their reign as the prominent species of the worlds. These rules were the only things that kept humans on an even playing field with the demi-humans. It sounds to me that someone is not thinking of the impacts to the world these characters live in and is just doing something to please those gamers that try to find ways around the standard limits. If they are going to do this, then why not allow humans to be multi-classed and demi-humans to become dual-classed. I can't see a dwarven wizard and that's not just because I'm used to them not being able to be wizards, but becuase that will change the entire race from what has made them the great character race they are. I do think that any race should be able to become a paladin or a ranger. Probably the only class that should be disallowed to certain races is mages. Some races(dwarves)are just not in tune with the magical weave. Besides, how would they explain dwarven mages springing up everywhere if they have never existed and what about the dwarven magical failure chances. Another question is would dwarves and halflings gain their magic adjustment for Constitution. I thought the whole reasoning behind this was because they magic spell casting was so foreign to them. Well, those are my thoughts.

Dave (Katinflas "The Masterful" fremlin mage of Alaghon)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 963 by Umbratikus

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Message 966 of 6030 Reply

I am working on new world granddruid_1999
8/23/99 8:32 pm
The whole planet is based on elements.

When the planet is revolving around the first sun, it takes 52,305 days, days being 30 hours. When the planet is revolving around the second sun, it takes 39,584 days. Even though the planet is so far away the planet is heated and lightened by the moons.

The 4 moons around the planet are elemental. The air moon supplies oxygen to the planet, the water moon supplies rain to the planet and there are no clouds because the water evaporates to the room, the fire moon supplies light and heat, the earth moon supplies the earth.
A full moon happens once every 59 days for the water moon, 30 for the air moon, 43 days for earth moon, 123 days for fire moon. The tides are so high that there is a 1% cumulative chance per week that there will be a tidal wave. The % goes back to 1% after there is a tidal wave. Lycanthropes are elemental, their element being based on the full moon.
Solar eclipses happen once every 549,178 new moons per moon, one right after another. Lunar eclipses happen once every 549,178 full moons per moon, one right after another. When a lunar eclipse happens, the element of the moon creates a sort of shield over the half of the world that is closest to the eclipse. The shields last a month. The fire shield heats the earth another 25 degrees, the water shield makes tidal waves have a cumulative 25% instead of 1%, the air shield makes wind go 50mph faster, and the earth shield makes mountains go 500’ higher. Two eclipses can only happen at the end of a year, when this happens the shields meld and the shields are 2x stronger.

The atmosphere of the planet is 5% oxygen, 5% carbon dioxide, NOT DONE

Players start at level 3 because of the conditions of the planet. Players also gain a +1 to any ability score they choose.

The deities of the campaign are constantly in a war with each other. Their powers are battle and elemental based making clerics warriors with some spells.

There are elemental stones that bond to a person, the person gains elemental powers of the element of the stone.

History:

Year Event
0 Cataclysm, man-made
1000 Expansion/exploration
1500 War, epic
2100 Discovery, magical
_3000 Legendary character
3070 Disaster, natural
3140 Kingdom decline/fall
3200 Invasion/raids
3250 Exploration/colonization
3340 Decadence
3420 Trade/prosperity
3490 War, succession
3580 War, crusade
3640 Kingdom, growth/expansion
_3740 Religion, cult activity
3745 War, internal
3751 Feud/rivalry
3757 Invasion
3758 Strong ruler/weak ruler

When the world was whole and prosperous huge amounts of uncontrolled elemental magic split from it the moons forcing survivers to live in caves and hidden areas until certain groups of people explored and found a group of fighters. The fighters faught an epic war with the group of people. Powerful elemental magic was found but could not be tapped by wizards of the time. A legendary wizard controlled and placed the magic in to powerful elemental stones. An eclipse destroyed half the world...NOT DONE

PS: help needed, respond if you want to help or have any new ideas

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Message 967 of 6030 Reply

3rd edition etc Birdbone
(M/Washington) 8/24/99 3:22 am
I haven't been to a 3rd edition site but it looks like a pretty crappy deal from what everyone says. Well I am with most of you in that I probably won't buy the new books (unless they make a trade in old-for-new book offer or something which I highly doubt).

About the map-maker, I use Wilderness Mapper. It really isn't very good but I like it.


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Message 968 of 6029 Reply

Re: AD&D 3rd Edition the_mood_dragon
(28/F/South Florida) 8/24/99 5:03 am
yes...you are right, there are enough examples to convince me to risk it...but beware, my magic stems from my moods...but I see in you the willpower and patience to tame this beast that could kill you just as easily as kiss you.

btw-I am Elven in my near-mortal state, not human; I am a Dragon who still calls Krynn her home; and I am good friends with the Mauve variety of evil Chromatic Dragons

This Is a Reply to: Msg 952 by Lord_Ixius

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Message 969 of 6030 Reply

More of 3rd Edition the_mood_dragon
(28/F/South Florida) 8/24/99 5:56 am
Some of the issues in response to your responses:

the idea that they have simplified all the "calculating" needed for hitting and such is nonsense...as I understand it, you still have to do some formula to determine the DC(or whatever)# and then you roll with that in mind vs. the AC of the opponent, which is reversed so that higher numbers are now better...so, technically, there is no THAC0, since that would be like hitting someone standing naked before you....they just didn't want to sound stupid and make you roll using your THAC10 number

removing the "Advanced" part since there is no D&D to be advanced from is not true either, as they were going through the trouble of Re-releasing the original stuff recently, as well as Dragonlance (makes one wonder if they were trying to clear out old warehouses or something since they had this crap of a system in the works) Why don't they name it MAD&D (more advanced dungeons and dragon)...maybe they won't see the irony in the name

and forget about the money some of us might waste on 3rd edition crap...if anybody here is smart, they would be going out and buying all the 2nd edition stuff since "Jerks of the Coast" have made it very clear that as soon as the NEW (shitty, same thing) system is out, they will NOT be making available any 2nd edition stuff anymore. In other words, if you don't buy it now, pretty soon you won't be able to get it at all!!!

No restrictions..no restrictions...no restrictions
well, I sure can't wait until my 35yr old, battle tested, great 20th level human fighter has to fight that youthful, spry, 200yr old, 40th level, elven mage who can cast that meteor swarm that has a range of 440 yrds...I guess we can rename that the "army killer" since 4 football fields of damage are caused by it...not to mention that he will be able to cast numerous 10d6 fireballs, since at his level he'll be able to memorize plenty of 3rd level spells...or for the hell of it, let's make him a mage/thief who can cast improved invisability that last for 44rds and let him go tromping around doing wonderful multiplyer backstab damage...hmmm...cast mute...stab...next victim...repeat....can we say "your whole party DEAD!"

I guess I could go on and on...but really..we should give these "fellow gamers" at the Wizards camp a fair shake

To you all...Later, and lets give them hell!!!

Laura,
The Mood Dragon

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Message 970 of 6030 Reply

Re: I am working on new world Pictii
(34/M/PA) 8/24/99 8:47 am
Am I to gather that as a 34 year old I having been alive only 12,410 days living to perhaps 68 years allowing me to live for 24,820 days would never complete a revolution around the sun, that would suck if one was born in late fall and spent their entire life in "winter" How would you handle aging, by the day or...?

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 966 by granddruid_1999

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Message 971 of 6030 Reply

Re: More of 3rd Edition Pictii
(34/M/PA) 8/24/99 9:00 am
Some one hit the nail on the head with this one, WOTC are a bunch of money grubbing scumbags. Just look at Magic and how rapidly they expanded that nonsense. As for 3rd ed. I really was never convinced to buy any of the 2nd ed garbage and I reaally am certain I will never buy any thing marked 3rd ed. I guess in a purely theoretical way this proves to me that 2nd ed was absolute crap (Why else would they come up with a new edition?) and I am glad I wasted no money on it.

I feel it is a sickness, the rampant greed displayed by wizzards of the coast, It is unfortunate that the game we all love has become a cash cow for bottom liners concerned only with their cash flow. Nothing remains uncorrupted for long, I feel sad for the new players just getting into the game, I wonder how long they'll wait to put out a 4th ed. fuller purses ahead.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 969 by the_mood_dragon

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Message 972 of 6029 Reply

Re: More of 3rd Edition Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 8/24/99 10:57 am
Wow. A lot of you have some pretty intense feelings about WoTC and the Third Edition (Mood Dragon, I see where the Mood part comes in : )

Anyway a few comments: The beauty of the AD&D game is that it is the DM's game. Chances are every one of us has everything we need to continue playing our game the way we are now, and most of us claim to be pretty happy with the way we play our games (some of us even vehemently defend it!). So for those of us that fit that bill, the 3rd edition doesn't effect us in the least (except for whe we get new players: "First edition? You're kidding, right?").



I will have to respectfully disagree with you here. AD&D, since its conception, has evolved. Even the First Edition was a change from what was being played as D&D before, and it changed several times without changing it's edition. Then the first edition began to get muddied with all the supplemental rules (Unearthed Arcana, Dugeoneers and Wilderness Survival Guides, etc.) The second edition consolidated much of that material in its new core rules, as well as tried to placate the masses who were crying for new subclasses (Dragon was full of them, all being "unofficial" of course). Anyway, then came more supplemental rulebooks and then Players Option books and what not. IOW, 2nd ed was getting muddied just like the 1st was. Now comes the 3rd ed, consolidating and refining all that has come before it.

We may like or dislike this evolution of the game, but the fact is that it is the nature of the beast. AD&D...er..pardon me, D&D is a game that evolves. It always has and it always will.

This makes my first point even more important. It is the DM's game. You can play how you want, with whatever rule versions we want. None of us play "PURE" D&D anyway. We all have our house rules. I know if I do decide to incorporate 3rd edition in my game, I will probably maintain class choice limitations on demi-humans, and some other 1st and 2nd edition things that are institutions in my campaign. Like all AD&D material, I will use what I like and not use what I don't.

Lastly I want to comment on the "money-hungry, greedy company" that is WotC. First of all they are a business, and the main goal of any business is to make money. If they don't they cannot stay in business. However, I don't see their changes in the AD&D game to be purely "greed-driven." First of all, they did send out questionaires to the masses asking what they would like to see if a third edition were to come about (likes, dislikes, etc.) Secondly, they discontinued the Planescape line which was a HUGE moneymaker for TSR. They are also not producing any more FR stuff, an even BIGGER money maker, replacing it all with a single hardbound sourcebook. I think if they were simply money hungry, they would be milking these things for everything they are worth. Lastly, most of the writers of the 3rd edition game aren't WoTC people, they are TSR people, people who have been designing for TSR for years, especially Monte Cook and Skip Williams who are two of the most creative minds the TSR design team ever had (Skip has been the "Sage" of Dragon Mag's "Sage Advice" column for years.

In conclusion to this rather long-winded post, those of us who want to, give it a try. Those who don't, don't. It is not crucial. Nobody is forcing us to change anything.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 971 by Pictii

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Message 973 of 6030 Reply

Re: More of 3rd Postmodern1
(M/Mpls MN) 8/24/99 1:54 pm
I really didn't want to post on this again but just have to add a few things -
Foremost, I feel the purity just flooded out of D&D. It's a business, yes, one that I have closely followed since 3rd grade because of my love for this game we play. The thing that drew me in was it still felt like family: names you knew, people who were there out of the same love for the game. Knowing what WotC did to MtG, I fear the closing of an era has occrred, for myself personally and for us as gamers. What used to be one of the purest, closest groups just became Big Business and that makes all the difference to me.
Yes there will be evolution in anything ... that's healthy. New and streamlined is OK if it's in the spirit of the game. It's a role playing game; to me that means forethought and planning, emotion and genuine involvement. The changes I have read of so far are designed to make this game more accessable, simple-minded and more pleasing to the novice much the way a Monty Haul game is appealing to newbies (ie no level limits because that might make someone unhappy, easier combat rolls because figuring out those darn THAC0's is just so darn tough).

Having said this, I temper my own complaints with the one thing that still makes it worthwhile, makes these unfortunate changes all pale by comparison; it's the Golden Rule for gamers - it's still YOUR game. Take what you want or take nothing at all, that's been the greatest thing about this game since it's conception ... and that makes all the difference as well.
Thanks for listening.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 972 by Umbratikus

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Message 974 of 6030 Reply

Re: I am working on new world granddruid_1999
8/24/99 3:23 pm
There are no seasons because of the fire moon

This Is a Reply to: Msg 970 by Pictii

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Message 975 of 6030 Reply

Re: I am working on new world granddruid_1999
8/24/99 3:26 pm
or maybe the seasons go really quickly because of the way the moons go... like water and air together to make a place icy, ect.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 974 by granddruid_1999

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Message 976 of 6029 Reply

Even more on 3rd Edition Lotherio_Giacomo
(27/M/Omaha, NE) 8/24/99 4:51 pm
I can understand some people still being upset at the fact that it was WotC who bought TSR. I was mad too, but I think, for myself anyways, and possibly others, that this is based on our hate of MtG. A lot of role players probably never wish this game was ever in any way ever associated with being related to D&D/AD&D in any way. Just be thankful they didn't make the new rules like those stupid Saga rules (cards instead of dice) or try to make it more like a trading card game. Or even like a story telling game or diceless role playing game.

I agree, if you think it sounds interesting buy it, if you don't like it don't buy it. If we wanted TSR to stay itself, just plain TSR, the time has passed for us to help them. Now WotC has it and, more then likely, despite who much we protest, lots of people will buy the game and keep it going.

I also agree, most of us can change what we want with home rules. The only real big change that didn't make much since is that they have changed the dice system (using difficulty scores or whatever they called it). But I can see it was done be similar to other rpgs out there with the difficulty number system thing. Maybe they're trying to use that to pull in people from other systems. I know I've heard complaints alot from players of other rpgs, when asked to play ad&d, they complain about 'all the dice' used in the game. Umbratikus (did I spell that right?) said it all, if you buy the book and don't like the rules don't use them. You think that lifting level limits sucks, just reinstate them in your world. Don't like the fact that all classes are open to all races, well restrict them again. Do whatever you want. Ever A/D&D book that has come out even says this, 'these rules are only meant as a guideline'. That itself says, 'these are not the end all play by these or don't play our game' rules.

Don't buy it if you don't want to (it's you're choice) - personally I might look into it and maybe get a few to see how it is.

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Message 976 of 6029 Reply

Even more on 3rd Edition Lotherio_Giacomo
(27/M/Omaha, NE) 8/24/99 4:51 pm
I can understand some people still being upset at the fact that it was WotC who bought TSR. I was mad too, but I think, for myself anyways, and possibly others, that this is based on our hate of MtG. A lot of role players probably never wish this game was ever in any way ever associated with being related to D&D/AD&D in any way. Just be thankful they didn't make the new rules like those stupid Saga rules (cards instead of dice) or try to make it more like a trading card game. Or even like a story telling game or diceless role playing game.

I agree, if you think it sounds interesting buy it, if you don't like it don't buy it. If we wanted TSR to stay itself, just plain TSR, the time has passed for us to help them. Now WotC has it and, more then likely, despite who much we protest, lots of people will buy the game and keep it going.

I also agree, most of us can change what we want with home rules. The only real big change that didn't make much since is that they have changed the dice system (using difficulty scores or whatever they called it). But I can see it was done be similar to other rpgs out there with the difficulty number system thing. Maybe they're trying to use that to pull in people from other systems. I know I've heard complaints alot from players of other rpgs, when asked to play ad&d, they complain about 'all the dice' used in the game. Umbratikus (did I spell that right?) said it all, if you buy the book and don't like the rules don't use them. You think that lifting level limits sucks, just reinstate them in your world. Don't like the fact that all classes are open to all races, well restrict them again. Do whatever you want. Ever A/D&D book that has come out even says this, 'these rules are only meant as a guideline'. That itself says, 'these are not the end all play by these or don't play our game' rules.

Don't buy it if you don't want to (it's you're choice) - personally I might look into it and maybe get a few to see how it is.

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Message 977 of 6030 Reply

Re: DM's Guild from Lord Ixius Lord_Ixius
(20/M/Orange Park, FL) 8/24/99 5:23 pm
I would be happy to send you the Guide but i need an address.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 964 by Riacon_exile

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Message 978 of 6030 Reply

Re: DM's Guild from Lord Ixius the_mood_dragon
(28/F/South Florida) 8/26/99 5:37 pm
My dear Lord, what seems to have happened to your psychic abilities???

This Is a Reply to: Msg 977 by Lord_Ixius

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Message 979 of 6030 Reply

Re: DM's Guild from Lord Ixius Lord_Ixius
(20/M/Orange Park, FL) 8/26/99 6:38 pm
My dear lady, hast thou mocked me? Do not forget, that i am conqueror of many dragons, and the mood dragon is one i am especially skilled at defeating.

::smiling::

Good day!

/~^*^~\
Ixius,
Lord of Canston Manor
and
Keeper of the Silver Rose

This Is a Reply to: Msg 978 by the_mood_dragon

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Message 980 of 6030 Reply

AD&D lwilson243
8/26/99 10:51 pm
Well I have finely finished reading the PH and I am about halfway through reading the DMG. I have been working for around two weeks on a new adventure for my friends and I to play. I want to thank all of you for being so nice in helping me with my DMing troubles.

Well thanks

Lee the hopeful DM

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Message 981 of 6030 Reply

Re: DM's Guild from Lord Ixius the_mood_dragon
(28/F/South Florida) 8/27/99 2:21 pm
Mocked you!!!! My Lord, I am offended that thou woulst accuse me of such a thing. I, in fact, was mocking the ignorance of the underling that requested thy assistance.

Now, what is this "defeat" thou speakest of?

Dragons are not so easily defeated, my Lord. We simply withdraw and plan our next attack...we develop much patience in our long lives :)

Respectfully...although not humbly,

The Mood Dragon

This Is a Reply to: Msg 979 by Lord_Ixius

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Message 982 of 6030 Reply

good or evil Birdbone
(M/Washington) 8/27/99 7:53 pm
I am wondering your opinions:
Would murdering a murderer be considered an evil act? (i.e. would avenging his father's death cause a paladin to lose his paladin-ity?)


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Message 983 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil the_mood_dragon
(28/F/Krynn) 8/28/99 12:42 am
This would certainly have to depend on who his god is. Palidins tend to lose there special qualities when they move alignment and act in ways not in accord with their god.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 982 by Birdbone

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Message 984 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil shinto_gaijin
8/28/99 5:43 am
in my humble opinion ..

committing the moral crime of murder (assuming that's the side of the plate the paladin's diety swings from) would be evil, but (due to the circumstances, such as a life-long enemy who constantly used deceit and under-handed tactics, and blasphemed the gods, etc ..) could be attoned for .. the paladin wold have to do some sort of pennance (applicable to the diety) do wash himself clean of the sin .. for a two hour lesson on pennance .. watch "The Mission" ..

paladins (although some would have you think otherwise) are still human (or demi-human, in the 3rd ed .. that just don't make sense) and make mistakes (although most paladins do so much more infrequently than your typical adventurer) .. if the diety is forgiving, allow him to be forgiven, but not until he has attoned properly for his sin ..

This Is a Reply to: Msg 983 by the_mood_dragon

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Message 985 of 6030 Reply

Re: Even more on 3rd Edition shinto_gaijin
8/28/99 5:57 am
Gaming Companies are going to try to make money .. there's nothing die-hards (like me) can do about it (other than pull out my 1st ed. AD&D books and grin .. a few of my friends bought 2nd ed books, and quickly shelved them)

There are some good points ..
* no more "to hit tables" (at least it seems that way)
* There is no "cleric" or "magic user" spell list, but there are restrictions (for each spell) on when a particular class would be able to memorize it .. makes things a bit simpler .. maybe
* it retains the classic structure

however ..
Why would anyone want to play a human character now ?? (other than the challenge)
The class and level restrictions imposed on demi-humans make sense .. and level the playing field (like the coasters jammed under that leg of the old kitchen table)
There might be ways to make it fair .. but I would have to have the rules available .. for now, I'll get back to my orange-spined books (which are falling apart .. if they want to really make money, release a CD-ROM copy of the 1st ed rules ..) and try to figure out how to increase my half-elf cleric/magic-user's intelligence and wisdom so that he can advance another level

This Is a Reply to: Msg 976 by Lotherio_Giacomo

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Message 986 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil Jiriki13
(30/M/Chicago area) 8/28/99 10:02 am
I would have to say that the severity of they way he avenged his father would also be a big question about how he would be punished. If he just slays the murderer without fighting him honorably, then I would suggest severe punishment. Either way though, the paladin would have to atone for his sins. The way this is done would be decided by who his deity is.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 982 by Birdbone

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Message 987 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil Pictii
(34/M/PA) 8/28/99 12:25 pm
Murdering a murderer, It seems to me that capital punishment, (which I am in favor of) is really just murder by the state (there is no honor leading a prisoner surrounded by armed guards and then killing him in what ever manner is applicable to the locale) Having said this I have to redirect, the morays of modern society have no place in either an actual or fantasy medievil setting. Avenging a slain family member (Just/or unjustly slain is what was common) the concept of police and law other than the whim of the monarch is very new dating only to the mid to late 1800's. A murderer would fear more from the murder victims kin than some other retribution, even the crusaders (blessed bullies) would like as not sought vengance were their honor besmirched or any actual indescretion perpetuated against them. Iggle was said to have slain his cousin in a brawl at the age of 6 or 7 when the village wanted to cast him out his mother made the case that he was twice the viking of any one and demanded (and recieved) he be given his own long ship and crew. We in the modern world are appaled by murderers and their dastardly acts (I feel this is due to the wide spread acceptance of the slve religion of christianity) but not all that long ago murderers (justified or otherwise) had less to fear other than retribution from an angry family/clan member. The fact that primitive cultures would kill new borns born with deformities, simply out of mercy, they would not survive any way. We find that to be monstrous behavior and would certainly not condone such acts today. Our culture is such that the weak are allowed to thrive, a fact the ancients would have puzzled over. So really murder and vengance there of are really subjective, I am certain in some ancient cultures IF you did not seek vengance you would have been ostracised, possibly even exiled.

Pictii

This Is a Reply to: Msg 986 by Jiriki13

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Message 988 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil shinto_gaijin
8/29/99 3:36 am
I agree that law of the dark ages was essentially what you could get away with, but your description doesn't take into account the root nature of a Paladin .. his diety.

If the vengence was taken in a form acceptable to the diety (typically honorable self-defense or challenge) then no attonement should be necessary, otherwise (hiring an assassin, killing him in his sleep, etc.) his diety's gonna be pissed at him for a while, and until he has cleansed himself of the sin, will be "out of favor" and possibly lose some of his Paladin-specific powers, maybe even an experience level.

The retributions and punishment a Paladin might receive in the material world should be secondary and inconsequential when compared to those of the spiritual nature.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 987 by Pictii

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Message 989 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil Lord_Ixius
(20/M/Orange Park, FL) 8/29/99 2:13 pm
Murdering a murderer is only considered evil if the act opposes the alignment of the one doing the murdering. Lawful-Good; yes. Chaotic-Evil, no.

In the reference to a paladin, yes a paladin would fall from grace for murdering because murdering is considered (by his own alignment) to be an evil act. The preferable solution for a paladin would be to aprehend the murderer and bring him/her to justice and let the law decide what the murderers fate is.

The position on "justifiable homicide," or that of taking vengance, is at best, a chaotic-good act.

/~^*^~\
Lord Ixius
of Canston Manor
and
Keeper of the Silver Rose

This Is a Reply to: Msg 982 by Birdbone

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Message 990 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil shinto_gaijin
8/30/99 6:13 am
Murder is always "evil" just as helping someone without expectation of reward is "good" .. the alignment of the perpetrator doesn't change the act .. just because the character is sadistic (a typical evil trait) doesn't change the fact that the infliction of pain is evil (even though they derive pleasure from it) .. a good action may cause mental anguish and guilt, if the act is not consistant with the alignment (which is fun to role-play).

Justified homicide depends on the situation, it could be Lawful-Neutral, as well .. especially if the LN character doesn't trust the justice system (the only way to bring order is to commit the crime) .. a vigilante could be portrayed as LN or CG (I'm breaking the law for the greater good), depending on the methods used.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 989 by Lord_Ixius

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Message 991 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 8/30/99 9:38 am
I think the problem lies in the phrasing of your question. "Murder" is evil, period. However, if the paladin confronted the murderer, battle ensued, and the paladin then slew the assassin, then that would be a different story. That would be akin to "trial by combat." I would tend to be lenient in that situation. Granted, the philosophy of the paladin's deity would also be a consideration, but even if the deity thought vengeance and retribution was okay, that does not necessarily make it a Lawful Good act.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 982 by Birdbone

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Message 992 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil Lotherio_Giacomo
(27/M/Omaha, NE) 8/30/99 9:57 am
I agree with what Picti said about this whole thing.

I like to look at the Knights of King Arthur's courts when thinking of Paladins. Like Picti pointed out, their whole philosophy on life was quite a bit different then ours. In fact, not avenging his fathers death might bring shame to him. And even further on this, if the Knights went off and killed off a bunch of Saxons or Picts, that would probably bring them some honor. Remember, in the legends, these are the knights chosen by God.

Like quite a few posts said already, it really depends on the Paladin's diety - maybe some minor influences by the politics of the lands he is in as well. This really depends on your campaign as well - in my campaigns the gods don't tend to come down a whole lot to explain what kind of laws they want to govern their worshippers. So this leaves such matters up to interpretation by those in power on earth (perhaps a mix of high clergymen and the leaders of the land).

Like was pointed out, don't use any type of democratic view on this, most of our political philosophies are not medieval in nature.

Here's a couple examples:
The Paladin worships a god of justice, the law of the land is pretty much an eye for an eye - if this Paladin doesn't go out and avenge his fathers death by killing the man, he's stands to fall out of favor of his god.
The Paladin worships a god of wisdom, who teaches people to learn from the what they have done - the law of the land who encompasses this god might might only have such felons atone for their sins (imprisoned to see that they atone). If this paladin where to go out and murder this guy, he stands to fall out of favor of his god, and probably his society as well, perhaps being imprisoned and asked to atone.

Like was said, it really depends on the dieties/hierarchy of the paladins faith. Murder doesn't not out right = evil.

Just my two cents
Lotherio

This Is a Reply to: Msg 982 by Birdbone

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Message 993 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil Lord_Ixius
(20/M/Orange Park, FL) 8/30/99 11:10 am
Justified homicide is never a Lawful-Neutral act. The act of murder/homicide goes against the Law itself (generally, can vary from place to place i suppse) and therefore is not lawful-neutral. It being a Chaotic-Neutral or Chaotic-Good act, i can agree with, but not Lawful-Neutral. The only way a Lawful-Neutral could do something considered as "justifiable homicide," was if he/she were order by a superior officer or official, and then it wouldn't be justifiable homicide, it would be "following orders," which is what LN are superb at doing. LN do mainly what they are told to do rather than doing things of their own conscience.

/~^*^~\
Lord Ixius
of Canston Manor
and
Keeper of the Silver Rose

This Is a Reply to: Msg 990 by shinto_gaijin

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Message 994 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil-Lotherio Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 8/30/99 1:50 pm
Perhaps, but the bottom line comes down to how the paladin deals with his vengeance. Does he slip poison in his ale, or does he boldly confront him. The former scenario would seem cowardly, while in the latter, using your Knights of King Arther analogy, "No knight that is false can win against a knight that is true." (From John Boorman's Excalibur).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 992 by Lotherio_Giacomo

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Message 995 of 6030 Reply

Re: I am working on new world mharelick
8/30/99 3:51 pm
I like some of your ideas.

Notably the idea of elemental lycanthropes. I think that much of what you are discussing is too scientific for a fantasy game. In fact while you are spending alot of effort on these wierd ways of dealing with days / months, the players are not going to appreciate it.

There is also a basic problem with moons being the "elemental centers", if they are in the same space. Whats to stop the moons from reacting with each other. For instance the gravity from the planet could cause the fire and oxygen moons to come close together, causing the oxygen moon to explode into a ball of flame.

What causes water to evaporate to only the water moon? This effect (if you can justify it) would cause clouds to exist in only one portion of the world ... That part that is in a direct path between the planet based water source, and the vapor trail back to the moon.

If the Earth Moon provides the "earth" to the planet, then what is the planet?

The only way I can imagine a planet within the universe you are describing is if the planet itself contains a sphere of annihilation or some other vortex in the center that draws these elements to the center. However I think that a planet constructed under these conditions will not be stable enough to maintain a history of human / magical development.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 966 by granddruid_1999

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Message 996 of 6030 Reply

Re: good or evil-Lotherio Lotherio_Giacomo
(27/M/Omaha, NE) 8/30/99 5:22 pm
Yes, by whatever method he goes about his vengence would make a big difference. Actually, there has been a bit of contraversy over this whole thing. I think whatever method he goes about doing this would actually make the difference between avenging his father or unlawfully murdering someone (myself included, I think I was confusing the context). Reading the original message, it only hinted at murdering a murder - avenging his father's death. Would avenging his fathers death really be murder? Or would it be the lawful thing to do (that's pretty much righting a wrong)? Like Umbratikus also mentioned, yes, if he slipped poison to the man, that's pretty much an evil act regardles of who he did it too.

Just some thoughts,
Lotherio

This Is a Reply to: Msg 994 by Umbratikus

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Message 997 of 6030 Reply

Lawful Neutral shinto_gaijin
8/30/99 11:43 pm
I disagree that LN characters, when acting according to their alignment "only do what they're told" .. that is assuming that the character accepts the "law of the land" as the best thing for order.

What if the character doesn't trust the government to maintain order ?? .. "Lawful" doesn't necessarily apply to written laws or mortal authority figures (or any authority figure, for that matter, although one would help to define order).

A LN character could easily be a vigilante, fighting outside of the local government for "law and order" because of the lack of capacity or willingness for the local authorities to act .. "my actions, although criminal, are restoring order to the universe".

To make LN characters simply "yes men" for whatever establishment is in place leaves much to be desired .. it also takes away their ability to make decisions on their own .. LN is a challenging alignment to interpret and especially role-play .. placing restrictions on it based on authority figures (especially mortal ones) is unrealistic, in my opinion.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 993 by Lord_Ixius

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Message 998 of 6030 Reply

Re: Lawful Neutral Lord_Ixius
(20/M/Orange Park, FL) 8/31/99 9:01 am
Yes indeed a LN character accepts the "law of the land" as the best order of things. The "neutral" part of LN enables a character to so and the "lawful" part of LN states the he/she accepts the order and law as opposed to chaos and anarachy. If a character doesn't trust the government, that's fine. LN characters believe the **Law** is supreme, not necessarily the ruling body of government

Of course Lawful applies to written laws. That's the whole point of it. Otherwise, it wouldn't be Lawful, it would be chaotic or neutral.

A LN **could** be a vigilante if played correctly and under the right set of circumstances. Most vigilanties tend to be Chaotic as they use whatever means necessary to establish their casue, whether a good or evil one. LN will not break the law, it is the nature of the alignment.
"Maintaining order of the universe" is part of Neutrality, but using criminal actions is against the law, and therefore not Lawful, and furthermore, not Lawful-Neutral. If a player wants a character to be able to break laws, don't play a Lawful character.

Every alignment has its own challenges and quirks, and though they are open to light interpretation, LN are, for the most part, "yes men." Placing restrictions on LN characters based on authority figures is not unrealitic. Again, this is the way LN is designed. LN is not very fun to roleplay, but that doesn't mean it should be subject to complete reform and interpretation based entirely on opinion.

Lawful- one who follows and upholds the law.
Neutral- one who takes no official side of good or evil, rather they stay between the two, helping to maintain balance.

Like it or not, LN characters are the best "yes men" and aren't great for a whole lot of other "i wanna do to it this way" things.

/~^*^~\
Lord Ixius
of Canston Manor
and
Keeper of the Silver Rose

This Is a Reply to: Msg 997 by shinto_gaijin

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Message 999 of 6030 Reply

Re: I am working on new world Umbratikus
(34/M/Central Ohio) 8/31/99 9:14 am
<>

I disagree here. Whereas the players may not directly say "Gee, I like all the month and day stuff you are doing," they will appreciate it. Not right away, of course, but it is details like these that bring the whole campaign together. This background information creates a cohesiveness to the setting that the players will look back on and say "You know, that campaign was really cool!"

This Is a Reply to: Msg 995 by mharelick

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Message 1000 of 6030 Reply

Re: Lawful Neutral Lotherio_Giacomo
(27/M/Omaha, NE) 8/31/99 9:42 am
You can't base a player characters alignment (the listed alignments) around how a single government acts - they are all different. Let's say s/he starts in a land ruled by a Lawful Good leader, sure, s/he will follow most of the laws here, though they may disagree on some. Then s/he
moves to a land ruled by a Chaotic Evil Leader - by your definintion (lawful alignments always follow the law) he has to willfully agree to abide by whatever rules this land has made. What if they made a law saying anyone from the pc's homeland has to be a slave to the Evil lands native residents. Oh well, your Lawful Neutral player is screwed by your definition, he has to follow that 'law', willfully.

Lawful does not mean they have to 'uphold the law', governments are as varied as the people who run the governments. Lawful is not a prime requisite to be a politician, nor to rule any land.

Lotherio

This Is a Reply to: Msg 998 by Lord_Ixius