Posts 2501-3000

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Message 2501 of 6725 Reply

Re: Re: I'm a newbie at DMing cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 7/22/00 7:33 am
Keeping players involved in your plot can be hard sometimes. Answer: Let them do some of the stuff that they are interested in. If the thief wants to go break in some place, let him try! If the cleric wants to build a shrine, let him try! Players like the thought of doing what they want to do.

You just have to wing it sometimes. My experiences have shown that the players will finally come around to get to the point of the adventure after they've messed around town for a while.

The Cpl

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2452 by adamr3365
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Message 2502 of 6725 Reply

Re: Bonded Mount JeffS78
(21/M/Schenectady NY) 7/22/00 12:27 pm
Well when I say "give" I don't mean the Paladin walks into his church and the priest says "hey, here's your talking goat. His name is Bill." As far as the quest goes for a mount, thats way to typical. My player would yawn at the idea. He's a really good roleplayer, and I'm sure if he "found" or "rescued" the mount, that we could roleplay it into a very good and much more rememorable relationship. The deity changing the mount I thought was a good idea. Plus it would give a chance for divine intervention. Trapped on a cliff, bandits closing in..no where to go, jumps off the cliffs, Bill the talking goat spreads wings kinda thing. Thanks for the ideas!!!

Jeff

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2479 by blackbart69c

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Message 2503 of 6725 Reply

Re: Re: I'm a newbie at DMing maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/22/00 2:24 pm
To be honest, despite conventional wisdom nowadays, I don't focus on plot with low level characters. Yes plot, drama, and power struggles are fascinating, but there's something to be said for just torching a orc village or clearing out a kobold hole.

Low level characters get plenty of excitement from simple combat. An orc can kill you. After the characters have some experiance, they'll want to become movers and shakers.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2452 by adamr3365

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Message 2504 of 6725 Reply

Re: Bonded Mount maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/22/00 2:28 pm
I've always found it less disruptive to include a mount that is a horse, but with heightened intelligence. Maybe even a magical ability or two - minor ones - detecting traps or ESP, not fireballs or death spells

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2459 by JeffS78

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Message 2505 of 6725 Reply

Re: Optimum number of players? maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/22/00 2:34 pm
Six is about the limit - I once ran a game with nine players, it was a nightmare.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2473 by pirates_life_for_me

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Message 2506 of 6725 Reply

Re: Re: I'm a newbie at DMing maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/22/00 2:40 pm
Just remembered one of my favorites - when the game comes to a lull and the characters are listless or maybe discussing non game things, roll a few dice and make some notes behind your screen. If need be, ask the toughest character/leader what his armor class is, roll a few dice, and continue with the game. I guarantee you'll have thier undivided attention

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2480 by Umbratikus

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Message 2507 of 6725 Reply

Re: Player Creativity maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/22/00 2:45 pm
Stupid things...reminds me of a character I had once...

The party had finally penetrated the heart of the lich's crypts. The noble bladesinger drew his blade and stared the undead horror in its lifeless eyes and said "Foul beast, surrender before me, renounce your evil gods, and serve me by defending the causes of good for a thousand and one days, or I'll destroy you where you stand."

The lich said "finger of death"

The d20 said "1"

Oh well, memorable death anyway :)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2485 by blackbart69c

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Message 2508 of 6725 Reply

Re: Identifying Magical Items maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/22/00 2:50 pm
True - one of the greatest thrills of being a DM is when a character has an item with wishes and doesn't realize it. You just sit on the edge of your seat, waiting for them to say "I wish I knew what this sword does" or something :)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2493 by blackbart69c

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Message 2509 of 6725 Reply

Re: However, Vheod_Runechild
7/23/00 11:57 am
Hi, this is in concern to what blackbart69c said, and I quote:

< Personally I believe that "holy warriors" (paladins) should not be limited by their alignment. If you read LG you will see that basically they live in the spirit of the law. That being said could a CE deity have a paladin. Certainly because they are LG in respect to their order, not necessarily the land around them. >

Well, I think that what you're refering to is Lawful evil. And true, an evil deity can have "Holy Warriors" among it's ranks, but they're usually called Antipaladins. They are the true Paladins sworn enemy. Where the Paladin is good the Antipaladin is evil (A clear case that for every action there is an equal and oposite reaction =)

As to the second part of your post, I think that you're confusing the Paladin with the Templar (A Warrior/Priest)

A Templar would insite war because he's following the edicts of his faith. He would work either by politics, blackmail, treachery or even by forming a band of brigands and starting the fights himself. (All this depending on the given alignment of the Templar)

But a Paladin of war would dedicate ot excell in martial prowess. He's the noble warrior that's always at teh front of the charge, leading troops from battle to glorious battle. He fights with honor and valor. He will always challenge openly an enemy rather that strike from behind.

As for the case where he's in a peaceful area, well, every warrior needs a rest from time to time. He would stay in the area until he's rested or finished whatever errand brought him to the village, and then move on to the next battle. Usually, a Paladin of war that is ready to retire will remain close to a king or country where he serves as tactician and instructor for the kingdoms army.

Well, those are my two cents. =)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2498 by blackbart69c

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Message 2510 of 6725 Reply

Re: Identifying Magical Items Vheod_Runechild
7/23/00 12:11 pm
Well, wishes are cool and all, but you've got to be carefull of who you give them to. Specially when you run into the situation where the character that has the Luckblade just ups and says:

"I wish none of this would have ever happened!!"

emphasis on the "none of this" when he's refering to the entire campaign. The last time this happened, I just stood up, looked at all the players, and said:

"OK, granted. Everyone, change your characters back to level 1. I'm going to get a coke..."

The player's screams could be heard all over the place. After all, by this time the group was between levels 10 to 13, so imagine their reaction when they had to start all over again.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2508 by maddman_75

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Message 2511 of 6725 Reply

Greetings One and All part 1 BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/23/00 4:25 pm
I'd like to begin by appologizing... I fear this will be a long post :) But after reading through many of the posts.. I wanted to put in my $99.95
I'll begin with group size. The optimal is (quite simply) however many you can manage effectivly and still not leave anyone out of the action. As a DM & player (I bounce back & forth)for 17 years... I have had the rare ability to run a game with 28 players. And yes.. it was difficult. BUT.. I had already DM'ed for quite a few years when this happened.. and it wasn't even intentional. I had been running a number of campaigns, and the groups began to meet, then switch groups (mostly due to time constraints on their parts) and eventually.. they all decided to be one big group.
So that begs... How did I keep track.
Simple.... I didn't.
I found years ago... the easiest way to control a larger group (or even keep a smaller one that spilts up from getting bored) was to find one person (or maybe more as in my 28 person group) to act as DM assistants. I prepared everything into chapters... and sub-chapters.. and then let players from one sub-party who were currently inactive DM parts of the sub-adventure for the other party. Since I didn't give them the notes on what magic items were... they couldn't use that to their advantage later.. and this allowed me to focus on the group with the currently "more important" storyline. Was it a B!tch... sure... But it was also the most memorable campaign myself or any of my players have ever had (and they still talk about it).
As for the average person... whom doesn't have all the time in the world and the patience of a saint :) I'd suggest 6. this gives the party some flexibility & the PC's some chance to be unique, and yet keeps eveything running fairly smoothly.
In any case however... I do make the suggestion.. that you take time to talk with your players on an individual basis & get a feel for both them.. and their characters. It makes it easier to play.


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Message 2512 of 6725 Reply

Greetings One and All part 2 BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/23/00 4:26 pm
Secondly... I have a rather odd system of dealing out treasure. I look at the defaults listed for the creature type... and then determine the area. Is it a wealthy area or an economically depressed one? Why do so many people (DM's AND Players) assume that the little dungeon outside the hamlet with a population of 15 is going to have magic items?? So I adjust the base chance of finding **anything** based on the area. And as for magic items? Well... I first roll d% to determine if I'm even going to look to see if their might be magic items by adding the total number of levels of all PC's and rolling against that. If I have 6 players.. all level 1 .. then theres only a 6% chance I'm even going to roll to see if there is any magic items based on treasure type. And my players have usually loved me for it. It makes each item that much more unique (as does I modify almost every item before they get it anyway... Girlde of Masculity/Feminity of Hill giant Strength anyone? Lets the players have the Strength bonus, but changes their sex while wearing it LOL)
3rd.... Anti-Paladins are hogwash. Or at least as "written" now. First... a Paladin needs to be disciplined. So much for the Chaotic theory. Lawful Evil maybe... after all... the normal Paladins don't "Detect Chaos", they don't hassle Chaotic good PC's that much (unless their really good roleplayers... in which case I get sick of them and ask them to please play another class). The closest thing to the EXACT oposite would simply not be capable of be mortals. And even if it was... he would die in minutes... as every peasent, merchant & noble went after him. And it's hardly as though he could kick nearly enough butt by himself at level 1.
As for Paladins & their warhorses. Why do so many people assume theirs a need for a quest.. OR that they must "get one from their parish"? Best Paladin PC I've ever had in one of my groups bought himself a Heavy Warhorse at roughly 3rd lvl, took the Animal Training proficency ... and taught it tricks... By the time he got the "war-horse" ability,... it was pointless... he wouldn't have given up the one he already had... So I simply designed a small mini-adventure for that one player, and made him prove how much he loved the horse (it involved him haveing to offer to sacrifice himself to a Dragon in exchange for the horses life)... puff... the dragon changed shape into the form of his diety's avatar, and blessed him with Powder (his horse) AS his warhorse... I was nice and boosted a few stats slightly... but in the end.. it was a matter of making the PC & player realize just how special it really was. No magic abilities... it didn't talk.. nothing.. just an incredibly well trained horse that was fanatically loyal to him and was fearless in combat with him because it loved him so.
Brings a tear to my eye thinking about it.
So thats all for now... But I'm sure You'll see more of me. Thanks for the patience. HAND


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Message 2513 of 6725 Reply

Alternate Magic System BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/23/00 4:41 pm
K. Heres a question for everyone.. with just a touch of backstory.
After listening to players b!tch (and doing some myself when it was my turn to play), I've decided I'm done with the standard AD&D Magic system... thats it.. overwith... no more.
PO:Spells & Magic was just as big a disappointment..And after reading far too many alternate magic systems on the Net the last few days, all of which were far too freakin' complcated to be worthwhile.. I've decided to simply do away with Pre-choosing the spells. Thats it.. no-fuss-no-muss. A first level mage can cast 1 spell... thats it.... but it can be any spell he knows. Same applies to priests.. bards, rangers. etc...
I'm still keeping the memorization/praying/ but now its 1 hour per highest spell level. This would represent a beginners need to familiarize himself with his spells, while an advanced one should only need to refresh his/her memory.
I'm basically curious if anyone else has tried this.. and how it works... Not that your gonna disuade me or anything... I'm still giving it a shot either way ' )
Thanks... HAND


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Message 2514 of 6725 Reply

Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/23/00 4:52 pm
Unfortunatly life creeps up on you every once in awhile.
This is what happened awhile back and now I kick myself.. because I don't know where I need to go to get the information I need.
See... I remember reading something (and I thought it was a supplement) about crossbreeding elves. Seems one of my Male & one of my Female players... each an elf.. but not the same type of course... decided to get naked & do the nasty (probably since they were in real life). Thats fine.. except that I use the Unlawful Carnal Knowledge Netbook.. and have for far too long... to keep players from sleeping with every barmaid & tavern wench. And when I didn't immeditaly begin to see if the Female elf got pregnant.. the other players started bitching. So guess what.?? She's gonna be a mom... but now I need to find out what these kids (I did mention she's having twins right) are gonna look like.
So I know it's asking bo-ku favor... but if anyone know where I saw this.. or better yet.. has this info (I'm broke from keeping up real life).. if they could get it to me I'd be much appreciative. My Yahoo account is fine.
Anyone who does this will be my newest best friend :) Thanks profusely... HAND


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Message 2515 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/23/00 5:20 pm
I believe the complete book of elves has this information - about how different subraces interbreed. I think that drow traits come out in the form of dusky skin, and you might allow the offspring the spellcasting abilities from Skills and Powers.

Watch out using alternate spell systems, as these are untested. Players will find loopholes and ways to abuse thier new abilities - especially if you have Magic players in the group. One example, when a group of mine started using Spells and Magic, I allowed the rule that let characters cast spells one level higher than they normally can, at double cost. On the surface, this isn't overpowered, because it basically involved giving about half your spell memory to one spell! But I had a creative player(and my wife at the time)

She played a wild mage. After a long hard quest, she earned a wand of wonder. In addition to its normal abilities, a wand of wonder gives the caster a 50% chance of casting any spell in her book whether she had it memorized or not. Thus, the ninth level wild mage could use one charge of a wand to throw around 6th level magic - very unbalancing.

Be careful, and don't be afraid to go back on a ruling if it proves abusive

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2514 by BrRaven

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Message 2516 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/23/00 5:22 pm
Also - nearly all my gaming group has split to the four winds - any advice on finding players for a new group?

I live in a rural area, so hanging out at the local fantasy shop is out...the nearest one is about 60 miles

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2515 by maddman_75

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Message 2517 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/24/00 12:45 am
ROTFLMAO...
Smart woman... *giggle*
I understand perfectly though... but I've seen players pull off (or at least try) that kind of stuff "following the rules"... which is why the only change I'm making is the idea that a list of spells for the day needs to be made before hand. It'll occasionally make things slightly more hectic on my part... but I keep most of my PC's less than geniuses (see previous posts about modifing magic items) If wasn't sure I could handle it.. I wouldn't allow it. When one of my players goes out and picks up a new supplement... the whispers go through the group about how neat it would be to have new thingy X, and how it's a shame I probably wouldn't allow it.
...Oddly enough... their usually right. :)
For instance... I'm just now getting around to allowing my players to "attempt" to use PO:S&P. Quite simply... I hadn't wanted it earlier. But on the other hand... I've only had a few players leave in the last few years.. and they were.. without exception.. due to time constraints. So all in all, I must be doing something right ' )
HAND

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2515 by maddman_75

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Message 2518 of 6725 Reply

Gaming groups BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/24/00 12:52 am
To hell with the local fantasy shops... try something closer to home anyway.
I find the best places to find people willing to RP are local book stores with large fantasy sections (who says your the only one in town, maybe they don't want to travel either), And schools. .. particularly colleges. Post a notice on the public boards and see what happens. With so many people from other places attending 1 school.. it's not inconceivable.. or often even difficult to find some people who either do Role-play, or who have very much wanted to & knew no one to teach them. If you know anyone to introduce you to people... even high schools can be ok (usually the seniors I would assume if your are 25). They'll be young, but local.. and maybe you can get a new permenant group.
In either case.. I wish you luck.

PS: Thanks for the tip about the elves.. I'll see if I can find info on it & (hahaha) buy it (as I count my pennies) if it has what I need.
HAND

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2516 by maddman_75

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Message 2519 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! Ima_Doppleganger
7/24/00 1:10 am
Sorry Mad, I have the Complete book of Elves. It talks about Half-Elves (human and elves).
Ima

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2515 by maddman_75

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Message 2520 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/24/00 8:17 am
Yah, who isn't fond of elves...


Sir Ian Warlock

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2519 by Ima_Doppleganger

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Message 2521 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/24/00 8:21 am
Yet, you may be inordinately fortuitous



Sir Ian Warlock

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2517 by BrRaven

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Message 2522 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! blackbart69c
(33/M/Calgary, AB) 7/24/00 9:05 am
We have found that it makes for an interesting and very diverse crowd of characters. Just remember that the disadvantages need to be played.

Something else to remember is that bracers of defense count as armour. So if that fighter takes the no armour/no magic armour figuring on free points ...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2517 by BrRaven

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Message 2523 of 6725 Reply

Re: Alternate Magic System pirates_life_for_me
(37/M/Ann Arbor, MI) 7/24/00 9:28 am
Alternative Magic systems, try this really simple one. Spells cost mana, mana is half your intelligence rounded up(per your level), mana cost is spell level squared. 1st level spell one, second level spell 4 third level spell 9. Makes mages more powerful in the beginning, ie, 9 first level spells, but the higher level spells get expensive. Second level spell caster has 18 with an 18 int. You can balance the system to your liking by the rate at which mana points are regained. (we played 8 per night of uninterrupted sleep, that was alot, smaller would balance better. You could make it take a week to gain them back) We also played that wizards could use a focus instead of spell components, but if they lose the focus they were basically powerless.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2513 by BrRaven

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Message 2524 of 6725 Reply

Re: Alternate Magic System Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/24/00 1:40 pm
I started using an alternate magic system, too, and so far it has been working well. I developed a point system where a first level spell is worth one point, a second level spel two points, etc. The magic user simply expended points based on which spells he cast, and he could cast the same spell over and over again if he wanted to, but he could still only memorize a certain number of spells. The only way this really changed the current magic system is that a character didn't forget the spell once cast, and could re-use it. Once drained of spell points, the caster was too weak to cast further spells.

The problem that this system causes is that very powerful spells can get re-used, greatly increasing the strenght of that character. A priest, for instance, could cast cure spell after cure spell, the mage lightning bolt after lightning bolt, but so far, in my campaign, it hasn't really unbalanced things.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2513 by BrRaven

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Message 2525 of 6725 Reply

Re: Holy Warriors Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/24/00 3:45 pm
Any religion can have a fighting order, not just the LG ones. They just aren't paladins. For that matter, the AD&D cleric is a holy warrior of sorts. How many priests do you know running around with 15 pound maces and sporting shiny mail? Clerics of gods of war and such would probably be sword and axe wielders to boot. The paladin is a special breed and is what he is because of his Lawfullness and Goodness and his devotion to church, state and the chivalric code. A paladin under any other ethos or dogma wouldn't be a paladin, but may still be considered a holy warrior devout to his faith.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2509 by Vheod_Runechild

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Message 2526 of 6725 Reply

Re: Alternate Magic System Vheod_Runechild
7/24/00 10:47 pm
I don't know. Creating a system of magic based on points brings teh same problems as using Psionics in a campaign. You would need to have players that wouldn't cheat with the point costs. I mean, lets face it, after three or four hours of game play you're up to the gills with keping track of the monsters, not to mention running the NPCs and the dungeon. You're not going to keep track of the points that the mage has remaining, specially if there's more than one mage in the group.

The one solution I've found with wizards is that I allow them to choose the spell that the character knows. (Around 6 to 8 at 1rst level) I also give them Read Magic, Detect Magic and Cantrips free (Because I know they wouldn't pick them otherwise) Then out of teh spells the mage knows, he can cast any spell up to the times he is allowed by his level.

For example, if you have Morgan, a third level wizard. He could cast two 1rst and one 2nd level spell. He has 12 spells for 1rst level and 4 spells for 2nd level in his spellbook.

Lets say that during the adventure he runs across a bunch of kobolds and decides to use a Sleep spell. (There goes one 1rst level spell) The later he wanders to a dead end, and the only exit is a few feet above him. He decides to use levitation and continues on his way. (Using his one 2nd level spell) And finally, as he runs to the exit of the dungeon a large boulder blocks his path. He decides to use a Shrink spell (Reversed Enlarge, and his final 1rst level spell for the day)

As you see, this option allows the mage to use the spells he needs for the given ocation. (As long as he has the spell in his book) This helps with the problem of the player having to guess what spells he will need for the day. (And makes the player a lot happier =)

Well, those were my two cents.
Vheod

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2524 by Umbratikus

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Message 2527 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/25/00 12:46 am
one piece of advice on S&P - DISALLOW SUBABILITIES!!!!

Thier only purpose is min/maxing
The tradeoffs are nowhere near even - the worst is in constitution - lets see, I can give up system shock for extra hit points NO BRAINER

The Stamina/Muscle is almost as bad - everything but weight allowance is on muscle(though a decent optional rule would be to put the plus to hit on stamina, leaving damage on muscle) As written, it also lets fighters increase thier muscle up to 20! Stone giant strength on a human is not my idea of good customization.

The rest of the rules haven't caused too many problems, but the subabilities turned run of the mill FR into super heroes

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2517 by BrRaven View Replies to this Message

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Message 2528 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/25/00 12:48 am
bugger

I know I read it somewhere! Too many books...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2519 by Ima_Doppleganger

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Message 2529 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/25/00 12:51 am
hee hee

My favorite way to piss off min/maxer fighter mages, who typically take the no armor restriction. They figure they can't wear armor as a mage anyway, so its basically free points. Give them a suit of elven chain early on, and watch the expression on thier faces when you tell them they can't wear it

BWA HA HA HA

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2522 by blackbart69c

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Message 2530 of 6725 Reply

Opinions on 3rd maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/25/00 12:57 am
What do you think of the changes to the magic system in 3rd edition? From what I've read
- Counterspells - a mage would be able to roll spellcraft when he sees another mage casting a spell. If he makes it and has the same spell in memory, he can cast it to counter the other mage's spell. I love this idea personally
- Wizards would gain bonus spells at low levels, same as priests
- Priests can trade in any spell in memory for healing, 1d8 per level.

The free and loose race/class combos make me nervous (something wrong with a gnome bard/paladin to me) but the magic looks pretty good


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Message 2531 of 6725 Reply

UPDATE ON BRAWLING BLADES!!! wulfgar_dra_guun
(30/M/Victoria, BC) 7/25/00 1:29 am
Did you hear the news... I updated the site. Mostly a new look but there are extra pages to view that will show a little more about what to expect.

I apologize for the delay (internet problems) but assure you the wait will be worth it! I hope you like the new look and feel. Please check it out and report any problems that may occur. This way I won't have to redo it again.

I thank everyone for their support and patience!


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Message 2532 of 6725 Reply

Re: Opinions on 3rd Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 7/25/00 8:50 am
I like all of the magic system changes that I've heard of so far. As a matter of fact, we have already started using the priest healing a d8 per level rule to a certain extent. What we have been doing is just allowing the healing spells that the player prays for that day do a d8 per level, but we haven't been letting them just trade a healing spell for one that is already prepared. We will be starting this at our next session though to try it out.
I love that wizards are able to gain extra spells via high intelligence. I've always wanted to run wizards this way. The DM's I played with didn't quite see it my way though. I also like the counterspell idea too.

The last topic is the biggest thing that I don't like about what I've heard of 3E. I will not be letting this happen in my campaign when we start playing 3E. I just can't see how they will explain dwarf wizards all of a sudden popping up, or as you stated a gnome bard/paladin. The only thing that I wouldn't mind is allowing any race to become a paladin. I've always thought that only allowing humans to be paladins didn't make much sense.

Does anyone know if they will still have an abiltiy score minimums for certain classes(i.e. A paladin must have Str. 13, Con. 13, Wis. 14, Cha. 17 type thing)? I'm not sure if those are the right minimums for a paladin before anyone starts with the craziness, I was just using this as an example.

I also like some of the spells changes they have made. I don't know if anyone else has been looking on the Wizards web page, but they have been do spotlights on several different sections of the game to give people a look at what might be different. They have a section on monsters, spells, character closeups, etc. It's kind of cool. The new version of flame strike and spiritual weapon(formerly spiritual hammer) will make the cleric a little more of an offensive help in the spell department. I also like the new version of blink.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2530 by maddman_75

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Message 2533 of 6725 Reply

Warrior/Mages IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/25/00 10:24 am
Maybe I'm just a bigger butt-hole. But I never allowed spell casting in elven chain (due to restricted mobility) anyway. My players grumbled and complained, but who's the DM anyway?


Sir Ian Warlock

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2529 by maddman_75

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Message 2534 of 6725 Reply

old timer IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/25/00 10:30 am
maybe i'm just an old dog refusing to learn new tricks, but I created one (1) character using that optional system....and by golly if I didn't have a priest that could litterally beat the snot out of any fighter of comparable level....he was basically a paladin on steriods....and i didn't like it...lets get back to basics i always say....



Sir Ian Warlock

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2527 by maddman_75

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Message 2535 of 6725 Reply

Free spells IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/25/00 10:35 am
I also use the idea of giving out spells like read magic, detect magic, cantrip....what's the point of wasting time on spells each wizard needs anyway...


Sir Ian Warlock

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2526 by Vheod_Runechild

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Message 2536 of 6725 Reply

Re: old timer dirtydwarf
(31/M/Michigan) 7/25/00 11:06 am
I agree.....IF it ain't broke.....Now our alreaddy thinning ranks are gonna be further divided into 2nd edition players and 3rd edition players :(

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2534 by IanWarlock

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Message 2537 of 6725 Reply

Re: old timer Vheod_Runechild
7/25/00 11:43 am
Not really. I think that the third edition of D&D is more of a scheme to attract new gamers to the market. If you notice, most of the rules are so simple that at times they don't make sence. (A Dwarven wizard? What were they on when they came up with that one!)

To me the majority of old timers will still stick to their old second edition books. Maybe they'll use one or two things from the third edition, but that's something they've been doing already (Only they call it House Rules =)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2536 by dirtydwarf

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Message 2538 of 6725 Reply

Re: Really old timer IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/25/00 11:46 am
Don't forget that some of us still have the 1st edition dm's guide which we still hold to be dear and true



Sir Ian Warlock

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2537 by Vheod_Runechild

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Message 2539 of 6725 Reply

Re: Alternate Magic System Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/25/00 12:48 pm
Vheod, my point system does essentially the same thing your magic system does, except that it allows the caster to focus his spell energy on casting just a few higher level spells, or many lower level spells. Keeping track of spell points has never been a problem, any more than keeping track of hit points has been. One mage used to use stackable poker chips to represent his lot of spell points. After casting a spell, he would return the requisite number of chips to his dice bag.

Using your example ("For example, if you have Morgan, a third level wizard. He could cast two 1rst and one 2nd level spell. He has 12 spells for 1rst level and 4 spells for 2nd level in his spellbook."). In my system, the third level wizard would have 4 spell points (one for each first level spell and two for the second level spell that he is allowed to cast). He could then now cast two second level spells, 1 second and 2 fist level spells, or 4 first level spells. He is still not allowed to cast third or fourth level spells until he would normally be allowed to do so. This gives the mage much more flexibility, without giving him too much more power.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2526 by Vheod_Runechild

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Message 2540 of 6725 Reply

Re: Opinions on 3rd Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/25/00 1:25 pm
I don't know to much about the 3rd edition. I haven't decided yet whether I will make the move to 3rd or not. I am quite satisfied in 2nd ed, and I know we have some die hard 1st ed people on this list.

My initial responses to your comments are:
- Counterspells: Cool idea. I can see some spectacular wizard duels with this rule. Even if I DON'T switch to 3rd ed, I might just throw this baby into my house rules.
- Wizards would gain bonus spells at low levels: This is intuitive and would satisfy some player bitching.
- Priests can trade in any spell in memory for healing: Based on my spell system I have mentioned briefly recently, this ability would be moot.

- The race/class issues make me nervous as well. If I DO switch to 3rd ed, I may keep racial limitations intact in my house rules.

Just my 2cp

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2530 by maddman_75

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Message 2541 of 6725 Reply

Re: Opinions on 3rd dmd12
(18/M/Wichita, KS) 7/25/00 4:18 pm
I thought that TSR wasn't going to create a 3rd Edition?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2540 by Umbratikus

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Message 2542 of 6725 Reply

Re: old timer BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/25/00 4:47 pm
Please consider that 3rd Edition falls entirely upon the great buisness minds that brought us Magic: The Gathering.
Dwarven wizards? Counterspells? etc..etc.. etc.
It's obviously a ploy to try and get the M:tG fanbase to try out the new WoTC AD&D 3rd Ed.
I said it when I heard WoTC bought TSR.. I knew the end was near.... then little seemed to change.. & I hoped it was WoTC simply not taking notice of their new aqusition. Now I fear for the life of a hobby I've had for almost 2 decades.
As it was I had gotten somewhat frustrated with the barrage of new products for Second Ed.. and had limited my playing because I didn't want to use the ever increasing new rules. But I did understand that it was an attempt to keep money coming in. After all... RPGers are a small group really.. and one you have the rules, theres no need to buy more copies of the same stuff.
But 3rd Ed looks to me like selling out. Just as WoTC made "Portal" (affectionatly know by people I know who play as Magic for Morons) in order to bring in a new group of buyers.. so they are doing with AD&D... but I fear it will hurt the game more than it will help.
Just my 2 cents... HAND

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2537 by Vheod_Runechild

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Message 2543 of 6725 Reply

Re: Free spells doctrevena
(28/M/Charleston,SC) 7/25/00 4:54 pm
If you read the material you will find that these spells are required elements of any wizards spellbook, in fact the wizard is incapable of operating without them...I take it then that you think undergraduate studies and in fact any education below that level to be a waste of time; I tell you they are not! If you did not have the basic ability for those spells, you would not understand the higher level spells. It seems to me that like many of our colleagues you have failed to grasp the importance of fundamentals in the Role-playing environment. Maybe you should consider starting all characters at fifth level, anything below that is just going to cheapen the experience for your players since you obviously just don't get it.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2535 by IanWarlock

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Message 2544 of 6725 Reply

Change a 2nd and now 3rd (ed) Time?!!! IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/25/00 5:14 pm
Umbra- you mentioned keeping some of your house rules. Damn straight! I'd be keeping a whole s____-load of them. It took me years of beating my players over the heads to get them to understand that the 2nd edition wasn't necessarily better just because it was newer.
I conceed that many points brought up by my players were good ones. I never changed without a fight though. Those issues that were important enough to be brought back constantly...Were the ones I seriously considered changing. And the old excuse that the new rules are so much easier to understand is NOT an issue. Whether you are new to the game or an old veteran, if you have to learn a new set of rules, or read the book and find which have changed, then that WILL slow you down. I think every Dungeon Master owes it to his players to know the rules so well that with a few simple questions to his players, he can run the game...And run it WELL. That is my constant endeavor.



Sir Ian Warlock

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2540 by Umbratikus

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Message 2545 of 6725 Reply

Re: Warrior/Mages maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/26/00 12:35 am
True, but technically, elvan chain is a magical item - and you DO have to be an elf to cast in it

Not just any mage can slap some on...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2533 by IanWarlock

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Message 2546 of 6725 Reply

Re: old timer maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/26/00 12:36 am
hehe - try making a fighter with these rules too - as long as everyone's on the same playing field

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2534 by IanWarlock


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Message 2547 of 6725 Reply

Re: old timer maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/26/00 12:38 am
I don't know - the arguement for going to 2nd edition was that the rules were spread over too many books.

Between the basics, complete handbooks, and players option, I get a helluva workout dragging my books to a game

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2536 by dirtydwarf


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Message 2548 of 6725 Reply

Re: Opinions on 3rd maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/26/00 12:40 am
Yeah - although I have to admit that it always bugged me that gnomes(or at least forest gnomes) couldn't be rangers and elves couldn't be druids. These cominations always seemed appropriate and the banning arbitrary

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2540 by Umbratikus

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Message 2549 of 6725 Reply

Re: old timer maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/26/00 12:45 am
Well, as a magic player I can tell you that both Portal and the new 'starter' sets are a complete flop. I have heard rumors of an eventual campaign setting based on the world of Magic.

I have hope though - one of the reasons TSR was in a position to get bought out in the first place was thier targeting of younger players. WotC aren't stupid(despite portal) and hopefully they'll see the target audiences this way

kids -> Pokemon
teenagers -> Magic
adults -> D&D

This would mean that we would get the best effort, as adults have much more to spend.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2542 by BrRaven

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Message 2550 of 6725 Reply

RE: Current issues mattbcieri
(28/M/Upper Darby PA) 7/26/00 1:19 am
Re: New arrivals:
I would like to get that info too, if any one finds it. I usually find myself creating that kind of info from scratch.

Re: new spell system:
I developed a new spell and hit point system that so mimicked ROLE-MASTER that we just switched. (I never liked the spell system nless I was holding the amges to their material components, which ment they developed the portable farm, and the portable alchemy lab).

Re: 3rd:
Don't like the Idea, though if it is any comfort, the 3rd ed of ROLE-MASTER is just about as awful as the 3rd edition od D&D.

Re: restrictions:
As a DM I have never agreed with the race class restrictions, and so were modified heavily or ignored. half-Orcs cant be clerics? then who performs the worship ceremonies? Are they all goddless?

Re: Old timers:
Since we are setting the way back machine, why not go for broke? or Basic D&D no 'a'. I want to declare my class. Ok my class is Elf. :)

Matt


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Message 2551 of 6725 Reply

Basic D and D... IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/26/00 7:50 am
My alignment is "LAWFUL"


Sir Ian Warlock...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2550 by mattbcieri

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Message 2552 of 6725 Reply

The rules IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/26/00 7:58 am
Besides a good player may be entitiled to a break in the rules...I had a player constantly wanted to be a dragon...I wouldn't let him...Explained that it wouldn't be a lot of fun....He'd have to destroy all he met...Or be destroyed...No social interaction, etc etc...But I finally conceeded... I don't think he had too much fun....It was a solo adventure (I thought that was appropriate). Of course this was all prior to the COUNCIL OF THE WYRMS (which I think is incredible). So I guess new things are sometimes useful.



Sir Ian Warlock.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2548 by maddman_75

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Message 2553 of 6725 Reply

Dragging the library. IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/26/00 7:59 am
At least you're getting in shape....



Sir Ian Warlock

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2547 by maddman_75

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Message 2554 of 6725 Reply

Elven chain.... IanWarlock
(M/Traveling the Multiverse) 7/26/00 8:02 am
My mind is made up...Don't confuse me with the facts.....



Sir Ian Warlock

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2545 by maddman_75

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Message 2555 of 6725 Reply

Re: Opinions on 3rd Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/26/00 8:28 am
<>

TSR didn't. Wizards of the Coast did.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2541 by dmd12 View Replies to this Message

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Message 2556 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/26/00 8:49 am
I did a little research on the 3rd edition last night, and I think I have come to the conclusion that its not for me.

2nd edition to me was just a natural evolution of the first edition rules, trying to encompass the material from the Dungeoneer and Wilderness guides, the multitude of classes that were starting to pop up, and some conventions being laid in the RPGA (THAC0, for instance), as well as streamiline a few things. I welcomed the 2nd edition with open arms. The 3rd ed, however, appears to be an entirely different game system. One might as well switch to Role Aids, MERP, or Harnmaster, as switch to 3rd ed.

One big benifit of staying with 2nd edition is not being tempted or curious about a barrage of new material being published every month or so. 2nd edition material now becomes finite. Even Dragon mag and Dungeon mag become less useful. We 2nd editioners now know that we have all the stuff we need, and what we think we may lack we can probably get off of ebay or someplace similar.

Herein also lies an opportunity for a company, like the Judges Guild of yore, to begin producing adventures and other material compatible with 2nd edition AD&D (that is if WotC would let them). I think there would be a big enough market to make that endeavor a minor success.

I'm not saying that the 3rd edition will suck. The reviews I have read have been favorable. One plus it has is that a good bulk of it was written by Monte Cook, one of the best people they've got and have ever had (IMHO). I like the idea of the vampire, lycanthrope, etc as being templates to lay on existing characters, and like I said earlier, the concept of counterspells is likeable. I will probably pick and choose elements from borrowed copies of 3rd edition material to increase my ever-growing collection of House Rules.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2542 by BrRaven

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Message 2557 of 6725 Reply

Re: Free spells Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/26/00 8:54 am
Doctrevena

Your message is a little harsh, but I agree with you 100%. These fundamentals are, well, fundamental. I actually use the cantrip rules from the 1st edition, instead of the 2nd. It makes the 1st level mage much more exciting and IMO, useful. The creative spellcaster can do wonders with cantrips, and I have had Detect Magic save the PC's collective arses on more than one occasion.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2543 by doctrevena

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Message 2558 of 6725 Reply

Re: old timer Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/26/00 9:03 am
Maddman said:
<>

This was a rationale for moving to a 2nd edition. However TSR lost sight of this over time and there is more 2nd edition material than the 1st edition ever dreamed of, some good, some not so good. Players Option, for instance, is pretty weak and like the 3rd ed, I opted against it (but also like I will with the 3rd ed, I did pick and choose a few elements from them). I liked the class handbooks, but didn't like the race handbooks, etc. My several page House Rules document spells out for the players exactly what rules are used, what kits are used and which NWPs are used, etc. All others are off limits in my campaign.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2547 by maddman_75

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Message 2559 of 6725 Reply

Re: Opinions on 3rd Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/26/00 9:27 am
Maddman said
<>

Gnome rangers I can buy, but I could (and often had to) rationalize why elves coudln't be druids. Elven theology and cosmology is different than humans. They have their own pantheon of gods that covers the spectrum of the forest and things natural. To them, the worship of nature itself is ludicrous, and would put a priest of Rillifane Ralothil (sp?) up against a druid any day. One of my players added that the magical nature of elves prevented them from picking up the subtle gaic energies that the druid gets his power from. Also, elves are too chaotic in nature to be able to maintain the precariously balanced ideology of the druid.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2548 by maddman_75

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Message 2560 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition madteuton
(31/M/Keyport, NJ) 7/26/00 4:15 pm
People, people, people! I said it once and I still assert it's ALLLL about milking the goode D&D name we hold so dear for every copper piece it's worth! Hasbro owns the name now and (I'm sure it *is* an entirely different game system!) is compelled to turn it into millions of dollars in revenue for their company. Afterall, there's not as much money to be made from simply reprinting the 1st edition material. Mark my words, there's going to be *scads* of 3rd ed.-specific material coming out -- like Dragonlance and The *Misbe-*gotten Realms for the 2nd ed. Hasbro will launch a major media blitz (I'm sure the D&D Movie is going to be fabulous!! sigh). Has nothing to do with integrity or making the system "better". Sheesh!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2556 by Umbratikus

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Message 2561 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/26/00 5:28 pm
I'll admit... I haven't even bothered to look that close at 3rd. And I don't plan on doing so either. Just from what I've heard from others.. those good folks who belong to this group in paticular... it's crap.
Vampire & lycanthrope PC's.... like hell.. NIMCY . Theres no way I'd allow a PC to be either... except in very special circumstances where all the players are said race. And I already have rules for that. It's called the World of Darkness RPG's.
Elven Druids? Nope... why do a race of people already tied to the land and who already worship it, bother to join a class where the principal is to become more "one" with the land? According to the Elven mythology, they are one with the land... 1/3 at least. (1/3 God who-sies-face and 1/3 moon)
Gnomish Paladins? Hell... any variety of Paladin other than Human? Don't think so. Only humans are often enough of Lawful Good alignment and also compeled to "make the wrong things right" enough to become a paladin. Elves ..hmm.. "Yes... I must make the wrong things right, but first I really must finish building these shelters for homeless, curing all diseases.." etc. Elves couldn't get it done.. gnomes wouldn't want to.. and the Dwarven idea of Justice would include (not killing the bloke) but breaking every bone in his body. Yeah.. theres mercy for you.
Counterspells? Sure I'll allow them...not sure what good they'll do you. First off, just counting the PHB theres aprx what..30 1st lvl spells? at lvl 20 (and slightly lower) that makes for a maximum of 33% chance you might KNOW the spell.. much less have it memorized.. And so great.. roll spellcraft. If you succeed, on you next turn you can cast it to "counter it"... course.. by then the 12d6 fireball has already killed you ..so oh well... Last I knew.. AD&D didn't have "interupts".
All in all, someone else pointed out that AD&D was for adults and M:tG for Teens. Looks like WoTC plans on changing that.
Now wheres my Jesters Cap so I can go through WoTC's deck and remove all the idiots screwing up a good game.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2556 by Umbratikus

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Message 2562 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition ODYSSEUS_THE_TRAVELER
(31/M/HAVE SLEEPING BAG WILL HA) 7/26/00 9:55 pm
well of course its going to be a commercial blitz!
that is what living in the 90's and the double 00 is about!
if none of you have noticed,,most of the people who are here in this forum, are older, more mature,,ie,,, mid to late twentys and thirtys,,, no offence to the younger crowd of course.
the game has become a money maker,, it is influenced by the people who determine just how much money they can weadle out of the younger, just introduced players,,the kids ( in their teens,,,)
the game is being made for them, not the older groups. its the same way with other game systems, especially warhammer types from britain, the whole scene is run by kids with cash. they in turn get older ( as did we) and gripe about how the good ole days have passed.
D&D is this ( and AD&D), a game of fantasy, most of you out there have your own worlds, your own ideas, and can pick and choose what you want and dont want. isnt that one of the many allureing parts of the game,,, total control ( or lack of it,,, its a double edges sword there depending on your situation).
i gave up buying stuff for the game except miniatures years ago, i shop ebay and yahoo auctions for the older stuff i always wanted ( like my recently finished collection of ALL the original 2nd edition monster manuals,,they rock much better than the new ones).

anyways,,, please,,,no one take this personal,, i am just venting the gripe of the poor player and the game players formula,,which goes like this..

fun of game
_______ X kids with money = price and playing fun
players


have a good day and happy gaming all

Mike aka ODY

ps,,, if you paint miniatures check out my mini painting club,,,we have painting contests and a good painting forum...its in yahoo clubs and its calll the miniature painting club,,,

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2561 by BrRaven

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Message 2563 of 6725 Reply

painting club link ODYSSEUS_THE_TRAVELER
(31/M/HAVE SLEEPING BAG WILL HA) 7/26/00 9:56 pm
here is the link for the club i mentioned in the previous post,,,, hope it helps all out


http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/miniaturepaintingclub


thanks again,,

ody


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Message 2564 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/27/00 8:04 am
<. Theres no way I'd allow a PC to be either... >>

I don't think they were saying that they would be PC's, but that they would be templates to throw over a character, so you would have a 12th level vampire thief, or a vampiric fire giant instead of just a vampire, etc. Not for use as a PC, of course, but as part of the DM's arsenal.

Just out of curiosity, Raven, what would you do with one of your PC's if he contacted a form of lycanthopy? Tell the player he must retire the character? I have had a ranger in my group who, following combat with a wereboar, became one himself. It was actually a very successful part of the campaign (it helped that the player in question was an exquisite role player).

I would even consider a vampire PC if it fell into the story line of the campaign (e.g. a PC was drained by a vampire and thus became a lesser vampire, but then the rest of the party rescued him by slaying his master, etc.) I would just have to see how the land laid. A good DM could make it work. Of course I would make life hell for the vampire PC, sending high level paladin or clerical vampire slayers after him, or hoards of angry torch bearing villagers, and I would be very strict with things like sunlight, etc. Look at the opportunity for role playing when a predominantly good party ponders the moral issues behind their best buddy being an evil undead thing. Hell, the party might even decide to kill him themselves. I think if the situation ever came up, I would have to let it fly (no pun intended).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2561 by BrRaven

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Message 2565 of 6725 Reply

2nd Ed. dmd12
(18/M/Wichita, KS) 7/27/00 8:50 am
Will the 2nd Ed. materials still be available to buy in stores after the crappier 3rd Ed. comes out? Or are they going to completely replace 2nd Ed.? Another thing: Is it just me or is MTG the only good thing that Wizards of the Coast published? I mean they came out a crappy Pokemon card game, and now they're trying to ruin DnD. I just don't think that it's a good idea for them to try making a 3rd Ed. after the stuff they just put out.


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Message 2566 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition wwillie2
(M/Worcester,MA) 7/27/00 10:39 am
Having undead in your party can make things very interesting, especially when the undead character is a paladin. to make things worse, the party daily battles other undead and has even recruited a clerical undead slayer. many, many priest have tried to turn him, one even nearly succeeded. but all are very confused by the character, especially when they notice he is an elf! ok, so things have gone a little bizarre, but the game play is great. the character is shunned every where he goes, often forced to sit outside while his party goes inside to get food and drink. recruiting followers to his faith has nearly become impossible. he has had to follow the old cliche "actions speak louder than words." all in all, it's a unique experience i enjoy but would not suggest allowing it in every campaign.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2564 by Umbratikus

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Message 2567 of 6725 Reply

3rd Edition and WoTC, pirates_life_for_me
(37/M/Ann Arbor, MI) 7/27/00 10:51 am
Soapbox mode on!

My 2 cents on this subject. AD&D is a game you play in tournaments. Having started playing as a sophomore in HS in 1978, and having almost never played by "The Rules" with my own gaming groups over the years. We used Ardiun Grimore supplements while we waited for TSR to publish more tables and rules way back when. As a DM, I play D&D. I use many of the rules in AD&D, those I don't I ignore or change to my liking. People who worry to much about "rules" should be playing table top wargames, people who want to Role Play should use their imaginations. This of course coming from a guy whose last module he bought was in 1982 or 83. Tournaments are different. There should be standard rules for the game so when people who don't play with each other regularly get together, they can. Hence AD&D.

As for WoTC purchasing TSR and putting out new rules, this can only be a good thing for the industry as a whole. Pokemon and Magic are their bread and butter, that is what is selling now. Producing a whole new set of rules costs money, TSR on it's own just did not make that much. Bad marketing, bad image of people who played it. I will admit I have spent 10 times the money on Magic Cards than AD&D books. The games are just set up that way. One of D&D s best feature is it does not cost much to play. You can spend thousands on minis and books, but for less than a hundred bucks, you can buy dice, a battlemat, a book or two and some minis and that is all you will ever need.Using that formula, D&D wont make any business rich (for very long) So having Pokemon and Magic players help fund D&D is a good thing, in my humble opinion. I doubt AD&D sales would keep any company afloat when you figure the publishing costs. We get better art and better rules and cooler mags and better writing and editing of D&D materials because Pokemon and Magic sell so well.

Look at other games that have come out since AD&D 1st edition. Most of them are better "rules" because the Role Playing genre grew up and matured. Gurps and Champions both have better combat systems than D&D. Call of Cthulu has a better guides for players and GM's for RolePlaying and examples on how it is done.
Why do we still play D&D? Part of it is because it was first. It is what we learned. young folks who play White Wolf's Vampire or Werewolf game then try to play AD&D most likely going to give up after looking at the rules. For we that learned D&D first, well, we are used to fine print, tables for everything, dozens of books, silly magic systems and trying to put play balance before the enjoyment of the game.


Last night I read Gygax's column in the July Dragon. He was correct in saying the AD&D needs to be simplified to get younger people to play. I applaud the move to take the A out of the game name. If you want Advanced anything, for tournaments or what not, then use the rules. Have extra books that cost more so people can feel smug about purchasing them.

As for myself, I am just out for a little escapism via role play, and I want to have fun!

I will make the trip to Geneva in a couple weeks, I will stand in line and purchase the new rules. I will take them home and teach my kids.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2565 by dmd12

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Message 2568 of 6725 Reply

AD&D, and it's problems knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 7/27/00 3:30 pm
First off, I feel ripped off by TSR/WoTC/Hasbro, since they are now pushing 3rd Edition of D&D. This game has had so many variable and optional rules over the course of it's life and now they expect us the pay, like over $50+, just to start playing (Player's Handbook, DM's Guide, and Monster Manual).

I've designed my own AD&D campaign throughout the years thaa I've played, I've spent thousands of dollars, as well as created variable rules, catalogued many of the proficiencies, as well as create working martial arts skills. I'm not about the just give up and buy a new system. But unfortunately, I probably will, just so I can read future products and probably translate them back (like the SAGA rules).

I feel that the AD&D game should've been more about improving the character, then worrying about the levels. The "Options" rules that camew out were great, unfortunately they came out too late.

One thing I always hated about TSR/WoTC/Hasbro was the fact that as time went on the products became more expensive.

For those who still play the 2nd Edition AD&D and need stuff for your campaigns, go here:
http://www.geocities.com/knightmare6/mywebpage.html


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Message 2569 of 6725 Reply

Re: AD&D, and it's problems atesh42
(18/M/Fresno, CA) 7/27/00 3:36 pm
<>

$20 per book. Cheaper. In fact these books are cheaper than most other core books for any other role-playing system out on the shelves.

-Atesh

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2568 by knightmare6

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Message 2570 of 6725 Reply

Lycanthropy and Vampiracy BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/27/00 5:48 pm
I've never told a player he had to retire a character. However, since I run almost exclusivly good champaigns ( my choice and the choice of my players), and I run a fairly gritty champaign as is, The players have (on the rare occassion when lycanthropy is contracted) usually chosen to either do everything in their power to be cured, or asked the other players to put him/her out of their misery... knowing that I wasn't going to change the way my champaign world worked just for them and they were going to be killed, or worse if they stayed infilicted. Too many people in my world are far too ready to take up arms to remove creatures like lycanthrops & vampires.
As for the idea of combining Vampiric traits to an already more than powerful enough creature... no. At one time.. when most of my players first began playing with me, they complained how deadly my champaigns were. Now they praise me for challeging them. They get nothing for "free" and so life is difficult enough as is. In my current group of 6 players... the average level is 7th.
There are exactly 5 magic items in possession in the group. They throw parties for finding weapons of quality. The next magic item will require another week long celebration.
I think making Vampiric Storm Giants would be a bad thing. Besides... if only Humans can become vampires (with the very rare and usually very special excpetions) how much use would the rules for vampiric monsters really see?
Lastly... want to play AD&D and be a vampire (or other undead)? I seem to remember a setting or suplement just for that purpose... Called Requim .

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2564 by Umbratikus

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Message 2571 of 6725 Reply

New crew glenromero
(30/M/Honolulu, HI) 7/27/00 8:24 pm
I just moved to the Honolulu area and I'm looking for a new group of players. If you want to join a new group or are willing to let me into join yours E-mail me at glenromero@yahoo.com


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Message 2572 of 6725 Reply

Re: The rules maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/28/00 12:11 am
I once had a player beg me into letting him play a mind flayer. I finally conceded, staggering the more powerful abilities to higher level - used some away from the god-brain excuse. He wrapped himself in rags, looking like a deformed leper at best. He retired the character after an hour, when he realized I really was going to make him eat the brains of intelligent living humanoids or starve

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2552 by IanWarlock

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Message 2573 of 6725 Reply

Re: Dragging the library. maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/28/00 12:12 am
LOL - yeah, the TSR workout

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2553 by IanWarlock

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Message 2574 of 6725 Reply

Re: Free spells maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/28/00 12:15 am
I use rules from an old dragon magazine for cantrips, where they are defined as a proficency. The character can do one per level per day, till fifth level, then as many as they want. Also until 5th you have to roll a check to do the cantrip. The idea is by 5th level the basics will be automatic

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2557 by Umbratikus

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Message 2575 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/28/00 12:19 am
You misunderstand the counter rule - both the counter and the roll are made on the same round, naturally. Of course, you'd have to win initiative to pull this off

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2561 by BrRaven

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Message 2576 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/28/00 12:26 am
The requiem alignemt rules would work excellent here - as any WoD player knows, the greatest enemy of a Vampire is the evil within him. Essentially, it works like this - there's a 9x9 grid. You have each alignment outside it - three positions per alignment. So, if the character was dead center neutral good, the good/evil would be 2, the law/chaos 5.Anytime the character does anything objectionable(DM judgement) the character rolls a d10 for each axis. If they roll lower than thier current number, the marker slips closer to either chaos or evil.

This was intended for Ravenloft, and could be used for a reg campaign where a PC was struggling with lycanthropy of vampirism

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2564 by Umbratikus

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Message 2577 of 6725 Reply

Re: 2nd Ed. maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/28/00 12:29 am
Actually, they plan to keep puting out materials for 2nd for about a year after 3rd hits the shelves, to give people time to adjust....

If you want a little perspective, its hauntingly similar to Microsoft's certification policy with going from NT 4.0 to Win2000. They assume everyone is going to upgrade. sound familiar

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2565 by dmd12

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Message 2578 of 6725 Reply

Materialism in gaming maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/28/00 12:41 am
All the comments have made me realize how fundamentally different our games were in the beginning. D&D started with wargamers wanting to take thier games to an imaginative level, and actually play out the kind of adventures they read in fantasy novels.

Its the same with Magic. When magic first came out, it was just a game. The first expansion, arabian knights, had cards to make fantastic things happen, like Sharazad and ring of Ma`ruf. Now they worry about 'the impact on the tournament environment'

Maybe someone needs to come up with a role-playing Linux. A set of rules freely available to all, freely distributed, no one making money off it directly. Big business has a negative, watering down effect. They don't want to sell games to us - the hard core, devoted gamer. They want to sell it to all the sheeple out there. The kind of folks that only play games whose rules fit on a single piece of paper and think dice have only six sides.

In any case, us old timers tend to make up our own rules anyway. Hope TSR does the right thing, but not counting on it


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Message 2579 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/28/00 4:37 am
Not to seem argumentative, but I did understand the idea of the counter rule. unfortunatly, I don't see as how it could be effective.. and less so in my games.
The turn plays out like this... either teams or players (depending on style, I've seen both) roll for initiative. Then, (or occasionally before, again...seen it done both ways) what everyone is doing is decided. Then initiative modifiers are applied.
So mage #1 decides to cast fireball.. his initiative however places his casting slower than mage #2, who has already decided to cast lightning bolt anyway. Bolt goes off... hitting mage #1, disrupting, and thereby canceling #1's spell.
The other way to play it (with decisions made on the fly during each persons turn) still wouldn't allow it, as (at least how I determine time in my games) the aforementioned mage #1 would start casting, but Mage #2 would have to sit around & twittle his thumbs waiting for the spell to be completed at least 50% (can't see how much info would be gained by watching a mage lift his hands... you'd need to start watching the somatic & verbal components), thereby assuring mage #2 that he wouldn't begin casting said same spell til well after mage #1 began, and so still not complete it in time.
In this second example it would be possible for mage #1 to watch mage #1's inital casting procedures without a delaying option, but would still not be able to begin casting until much later as he already was at a disadvantage in initiative.
Again, I point out... AD&D doesn't have the option available for players to go "Hold on a second, I'm going to do something about that". It's a simple matter of who's on first.. whats on second.
Again.. this is simply my personal feeling, and not an attempt to keep anyone else from deciding how their games are run.
Meanwhile... I counter almost any spell very easily already.. "Magic Missile"
HAND =)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2575 by maddman_75

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Message 2580 of 6725 Reply

Re: Lycanthropy and Vampirism Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/28/00 10:02 am
<>

What about good aligned werebeasts? Werebears, etc.

<>

This is the way I run my campains as well - low magic, low money. Cant have PC's disrupting the economy, now can we?

<>

I think this adds a new dimension to the concept of vampirism. I remember an exciting game (I was playing, not DMing) where we came across a vampiric lizard man. It was great fun. I personally have never ported that idea over into my campaign, but I am not opposed to it. I think the state of being undead should not apply to humanity alone. Based on the AD&D concept of the elves, they really couldn't become undead, and I'm sure this would be true of some other creatures as well, but applying to humans alone just doesn't make sense. I have seen animate dead used on dogs, horses, bugbears, and even giants in my campaign. A hill giant zombie can deal some damage, and a skeletal horse is a sight to see. Why can't this happen with other undead types? What about the dreaded dracolich? I think the concept of "undeath" can apply creatively across the board for some really unique situations. Other concepts can be appied to other races/creatures as well, like the flesh golem.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the D&D and AD&D games are games of imagination. They give you a framework from which to create wonderous campaigns. I don't always limit my monsters to what is listed in the Monster Manual (et.al.). I create many of my own. If the existence of a creature will unbalance a campaign, or simply isn't a logical addition, then I wouldn't dream of using it. But if it can not only fit, but add a new flavor to the campaign in addition to keeping the players on their toes, why not?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2570 by BrRaven

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Message 2581 of 6725 Reply

Re: The rules Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/28/00 10:31 am
If a player wants to play a non-standard race badly enough, AND I'm convinced he might be able to play it effectively, AND I can fit it comfortably in the storyline of my campaign, THEN I MIGHT consider it. So far, though, no one has ever wanted to (except when one Player played a teifling from the Panescape setting in my Prime Material world). I do allow half-orcs, half-ogres, and goblins as standard PC races, though.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2572 by maddman_75

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Message 2582 of 6725 Reply

Re: Free spells Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/28/00 10:36 am
What issue of Dragon was that cantrip article in? In the 1st edition Unearthed Arcana, there was a list of cantrips, each with its own description, like a normal spell. The caster could then just substitute up to 4 cantrips in place of 1 first level spell.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2574 by maddman_75

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Message 2583 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition Counterspells Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/28/00 10:45 am
<>

This doesn't make sense. First of all, you are supposed to state your actions before you role initiative, so you would have to say "I'm going to try and use my spellcraft proficiency to determine what spell that wizard is going to cast and try and counter it." But if you win the initiative, then you are reacting before the other wizard starts casting his spell. In order for a counterspell to work, the other caster would first have to start casting the spell. THEN you would have to roll your proficiency check and begin casting your counterspell. Assuming you can start casting your spell on the same segment that you make the check, then you would have to tie initiative in order to possibly pull this off, and you would still be a split second late.

Also, it would be cool if the DM made the proficiency check for you, that way if you fail, the DM can tell you an erroneous spell instead of just saying "You can't tell what he is casting."

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2575 by maddman_75

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Message 2584 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/28/00 10:52 am
<>

Uh...Good point.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2579 by BrRaven

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Message 2585 of 6725 Reply

New AD&D club looking for players knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 7/28/00 5:18 pm
Sorry to SPAM! But I just created a new club and wanna start doing a Planescape campaign first, if you're interested, go here:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/alltheplanescomecalling


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Message 2586 of 6725 Reply

Re: Lycanthropy and Vampirism glenromero
(30/M/Honolulu, HI) 7/28/00 5:19 pm
The best DM I ever played allowed my to have an elven weretigeress fighter/theif. She was so much fun. The other players didn't know at first just what my character was. I quicky befriended the groups mage after he learned Sleep. That spell saved me from killing a party member once or twice. My point is lycanthropy can be fun for the players. You don't have to kill off the character or try to find a cure.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2580 by Umbratikus

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Message 2587 of 6725 Reply

Re: Lycanthropy and Vampirism wren_the_elven_ranger
(122/F/Silvery moon) 7/29/00 12:03 am
yes, you might not have to cure a were tiger ress because they have a good/neutral alingment. but a were wolf is chatioc evil. onece transformed it could kill 2 party members before they knew what had happened. the fighters then would cut it to shreds as they wouldnt know it was there friend unless they say it transform, if they did they would be faced with a moral delema, to kill there friend or to subdue him and hope he dosent wake up until the transformation is over.
as for vampires if the p.c's want vampires as a race/class they should be playing vampire the masqureade not dnd.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2586 by glenromero

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Message 2588 of 6725 Reply

Re: Lycanthropy and Vampirism Vheod_Runechild
7/29/00 3:05 am
Well, for one thing Lycanthrophy can be a good source of roleplay. For instance, One of my players became a Werewolf after fighting one (he got infected, even though he later killed the werewolf)

On the night before, during and after a full moon the character would just black out, no memory of what happened. And in the following morning he would find himself in the middle of a field, clothes shredded to pieces and sometimes stained with blood. He then had to find out what he had done during the time he was out. If you have a player that is good at roleplay this can be a most interesting situation. (The guy I'm speaking off was an eccellent player. During the story he would even pay retribution to teh families of the people he'd killed while under the influence of the moon)

Another point, just because a person is aflicted by Lycanthropy doesn't mean that he immediately turns evil. Same goes when turned to a vampire. The change would insite the character toward the new alignment, but he would still retain his original alignment. It is then a matter of roleplay to see if the character has enough willpower to remain in his alignment or slowly start shifting towards evil.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2587 by wren_the_elven_ranger

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Message 2589 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/29/00 12:23 pm
Good point...magic missile is an effective counter. I think the whole point is to encourage players to have a variety of spells memorized. Common spells would be easily countered

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2579 by BrRaven

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Message 2590 of 6725 Reply

Re: Free spells maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/29/00 12:25 pm
Sorry, can't remember the issue number. The article was called 'The Little Wish' I believe. Its a very workable system

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2582 by Umbratikus

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Message 2591 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition Counterspells maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/29/00 12:28 pm
well, I've always been a little lax on PC's re-declaring actions, so long as its reasonable. the wizard 'casting a spell' at initiative time is fine by me deciding what spell he's casting after initiative

I also like the idea of telling them the wrong spell on a blown roll. "Oh, he was casting haste" Then the bad guy launches a fireball and the PC mage ends up hasting the enemy group. BWAHAHAHA

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2583 by Umbratikus

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Message 2592 of 6725 Reply

Countering & NonStandard PC's BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/30/00 1:27 am
After reading through the posts since a few of my last ones, I'd like to make a few points clear to everyone as to exactly what I am trying to say.
#1; I've never said, nor shall I ever say, that what anyone "wants" to do in a rpg is wrong. We all have our own play & DM/GM/Juge/etc styles, and hopefully we all succesfully bring a fairly decent amount of enjoyment to those we play with.
#2; I have never said that playing a nonstandard race in your campaign is bad. While I myself allow few of the "Book of Humanoid" races in my game.. neither have I been asked for many.
#3; I fully recognize the roleplaying possibilities available from being a lycanthrope or undead, and I have no doubt there are people out there capable of doing a damn impressive job of playing these races or those around them. I myself have a 1/2 Drow 1/2 Grey Elven woman that I've played for years. I hope I do well with her, as she is definitly a strech to many of the rules at best.
#4; I'm sure counterspells could very well be used quite ingeniously.
My complaint, and point is that many of these new rules coming out are not necessary; and that all they are really going to do is frustrate more DM's as their players get access to new rules they want to use and the DM's don't. The biggest exception in my opinion being that of Counterspells, ...which unless WoTC is going to screw with the time system, is simply impossible. Even with the PO rules, a mage taking reduced casting time still would not be able to successfully cast a spell, as even with the reduced casting time, they'd still have to make the spellcraft check before they can begin, and last count, no mage ability or special effect will allow 1 mage to act twice in one round before another. Nice idea.. but the whole Proficiency check, cast the spell thing.. eheh.. not gonna work in my campaign at least. I pay attention to time sequences to much in my game.
As a partial side note... I never said Humans were the only undead... just the only Vampires. Not sure if it's official in AD&D (any one know for sure), but I know that in Shadowrun (my other addiction) Banshees are undead Elves.. and I know (ummm..Sithicas?) Ravenloft has vampiric Kender (a completely magically constructed race as I recall).


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Message 2593 of 6725 Reply

Re: Countering & NonStandard PC's maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 7/30/00 12:24 pm
I run Ravenloft - and each of the demihuman races have thier own vampires - however they are different and distinct to thier sub-race. Most of them drain ability scores rather than levels.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2592 by BrRaven

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Message 2594 of 6725 Reply

Re: Countering & NonStandard PC's Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 7/31/00 10:54 am
Raven,
I detected a hint of frustration in your last post, much of which seems to have been brought on by my posts. For the record, none of my posts were meant as attacks on your gaming style or your ideas or anything. I was just debating issues you brought up. I personally feel that this forum benefits from such debates. I for instance loved the Counterspell idea, but with further development in our discussions here, agree with you that such a feat, however spectacular it might be, would be impossible in the context of the 2nd ed. rule system with respect to time. Actually, I think there are a lot of simiarity in our playing styles. I apologize if any offense was taken. My stance is that lycanthropes and vampires(or possibly other undead) as PC's could work under the right circumstances and withing the context of the campaign (and with the right players). Your stance is that you don't think it would work in your's. That's cool. I'm willing to agree to disagree.

My biggest thrust for allowing such things in my game is that I want to give the players every possible opportunity to hold on to their PC's, even after death. I'm not a "soft" DM. If the PC is in over his head or slips up royally, or even have a run of bad luck, I'll let them die. I am stingy with ressurection and reincartation spells too, but I am willing to let the player play whatever his character is reincarnated into (even if it is a racoon). I think if the campaign gets too disrupted, I can then do something to rectify the situation.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2592 by BrRaven

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Message 2595 of 6725 Reply

Re: The rules glenromero
(30/M/Honolulu, HI) 7/31/00 4:29 pm
I once played a Wemic named Black paw. He was a teenaged fighter. It was fun playing him. When not in combat he liked to play like a kitten with strings and other things that made noise. When in combat he would play with his prey, Tackle them to the ground and let them get up and run only to tackle them again. He wouldn't kill his prey if he completely out classed them. This campain was set in Water Deep so he was not completely out of place.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2581 by Umbratikus

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Message 2596 of 6725 Reply

Re: Lycanthropy and Vampirism glenromero
(30/M/Honolulu, HI) 7/31/00 5:05 pm
I could not have done a better job saying it.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2588 by Vheod_Runechild

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Message 2597 of 6725 Reply

Re: Countering & NonStandard PC's BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 7/31/00 5:18 pm
LOL,
Less frustration as trying to make sure I was clear on what I was saying. It seemed I opened a bit of a can of worms, and while I honestly can't say who wrote the posts I "most disagreed with", I took no offense. It just seemed that the responses were making me out to be some kind of hard-a$$ I wasn't, and didn't want anyone to get the wrong impression.
And I believe that their is nothing wrong with a DM allowing their players to continue playing an "afflicted character". If the DM is confident in his players abilities to role-play it out and wants to let the PC continue.. thats cool. I have done things similar in the past. I just don't think we need rules to allow us to do it, and then have players excpect us to "let them" use these rules.
What I've heard of 3rd bothers me intensily. It's supposedly being made easier so newer players get into it. Well... how was it made easier for those people who started in the mid-eighties instead of the mid-70's? 2nd Ed changed little except to clarify allot of what was already out there and being used. The biggest changes, in my opinion, actually made the game more difficult (I sorely miss first Edition Rangers).
So at a time when new gamers are geting into AD&D, and already looking to create munchkins (even if they don't know they are) WoTC/TSR has decided to make munchkins that much easier to make following the rules? blech. New players want easy? Have them start like many of us probably did (I know most people I know who've played for awhile did) Re-Release D&D, not try to downscale AD&D into D&D.
Others may decide they like 3rd, and move on to it. But for me... unless #1 Something drastic happens, or #2 I changed half the rules back to follow 2nd ( or 1st in some cases) I wont be comfortable in it.. and I'll join the ranks of people who are out there now looking for people to play first edition. A DM with no players.
But a good DM never dies... he just fades away :) HAND
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Headline; January 2010: WoTC/TSR announces D&D 4th Edition. In press releases, spokesmen for the long standing game legend stated that due to player pressure to make the game easier for beginners... all PC's would now be Human Fighters, with 12's for all abilities, wearing chainmail, carrying long swords.. and only capable of being 1st level, with no progession possible. However, rules also exist that make it not only possible, but mandatory that after the 2nd adventure the character is in... the PC becomes an unkillable god.
4th Edition excpected to out sell D&D, AD&D 1,2 & 3 combined.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2594 by Umbratikus

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Message 2598 of 6725 Reply

Re: Lycanthropy and Vampirism Ima_Doppleganger
7/31/00 5:28 pm
But, in the minds of the local villagers, be they 0 level fighters or 10th level paladins et al, vampires and Lycanthrophs are evil. Therefore, a vigilante / hunting party would be formed, and the word would spread, and adventurers from all over would come to try and collect the reward (hum, now where have I heard that before?). Oh, and by the by, if you kill someone’s relative, more than likely, they want you dead. Asin dead. Not “retribution”.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2588 by Vheod_Runechild

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Message 2599 of 6725 Reply

Re: Countering & NonStandard PC's Ima_Doppleganger
7/31/00 5:32 pm
LOL, love it!!! Ima

Headline; January 2010: WoTC/TSR announces D&D 4th Edition. In press releases, spokesmen for the long standing game legend stated that due to player pressure to make the game easier for beginners... all PC's would now be Human Fighters, with 12's for all abilities, wearing chainmail, carrying long swords.. and only capable of being 1st level, with no progession possible. However, rules also exist that make it not only possible, but mandatory that after the 2nd adventure the character is in... the PC becomes an unkillable god.
4th Edition excpected to out sell D&D, AD&D 1,2 & 3 combined

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2597 by BrRaven

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Message 2600 of 6725 Reply

Re: Countering & NonStandard PC's Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/1/00 7:44 am
Talk about frustration, I think the 3rd edition would cause more frustration for most of us die hard 1st and 2nd editioners. I just don't really see the point in switching.

I'm comfortable and well versed in the rules I currently use, and I enjoy them as they are (rules I didn't like, I changed to my liking). My players are all comfortable and well versed (and also like) the current rules. What incentive is there for me to shell out $60 for three new books and then start setting aside a percentage of my paycheck every month for new supplements? What, I ask you? What? What? WHAT?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2597 by BrRaven

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Message 2601 of 6725 Reply

3rd edition supplements Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/1/00 7:47 am
Besides, if WotC releases a mega-cool supplement that would really add something to my campaign, the conversion rules they give away for free to convert 2nd edition campaigns to 3rd edition could probably be used in reverse.


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Message 2602 of 6725 Reply

Re: Countering & NonStandard PC's Ima_Doppleganger
8/1/00 4:36 pm
<>
The joy of participating in a new and bold era of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons!!! And just think, those of us that still have the antique, 1st Edition books, won't have to purchase the "AD&D CLISSAC ADVENTURES" series, soon to be released in spring 2002. Ima

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2600 by Umbratikus

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Message 2603 of 6725 Reply

Re: Holy Warriors blackbart69c
(33/M/Calgary, AB) 8/2/00 9:18 am
In theory I agree with you, however, there are instances of evil knights that are just as lawful acting within the tenets of their faith and belief (Mordred) and had the full power of being a paladin (just not called that).

There is nothing wrong with creating a holy order of fighters for a specific CE god, merely saying that you may as well call it a paladin and enforce a chivalric code.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2525 by Umbratikus

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Message 2604 of 6725 Reply

Re: Avariels and Sylvan & Drow Oh My! blackbart69c
(33/M/Calgary, AB) 8/2/00 9:24 am
Use haste spells (require a system shock) and polymorph spells (require a system shock), etc. more. And I quote "No subability may be raised beyond racial maximums". So unless the human is a special race that I'm not familiar with I don't think that muscle can go past 18/00

You're right I can trade off stamina for muscle, but when I need to move that plate mail ... good luck. Remember encumbrance.

Constitution bonuses are great for fighters, but only they get the advantage for high con so if they want to trade off extra hit points for a lower chance to survive any body altering/aging event ...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2527 by maddman_75

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Message 2605 of 6725 Reply

Re: Elven chain.... blackbart69c
(33/M/Calgary, AB) 8/2/00 9:33 am
I had a hard time accepting the argument that a wizard could not wear any armor (except elven chain). Even now I won't let them wear armor of any kind (that's what the robe of the archmagi is for, let them quest).

My 2cp worth

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2554 by IanWarlock

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Message 2606 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition blackbart69c
(33/M/Calgary, AB) 8/2/00 9:39 am
Actually, that is what counterspell appears to be. The spellcraft check is to see if you recognize the spell in transit, you need to have the spell in memory and you have to have an initiative of the same or earlier. All in all not the greatest chances of getting an interrupt in, but hey a slim chance beats no chance.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2561 by BrRaven

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Message 2607 of 6725 Reply

Software CDHofmann
(35/M/Cape Cod) 8/2/00 3:10 pm
Hello to all. Need some help from the collective wisdom of the club. I have been gaming and DMing for 18 years or so now. However, I haven't had much time to dedicate to it in the last 7 years or so. Now I have an itching to run something and I have a few people interested in playing. Almost all of my players will be new to the game and I have always found it easier to start new players with pre-gens. Here is my questions: I would like to generate about 10 or so PCs to populate a small Keep I have developed. The idea being that I will start with a few "one sitting" adventures and the players can drop in as they are available (and know that thier characters are secure when they are not around.) My problem is that I don't have the time or energy to sit down and create 10 - 12 PCs from scratch. And, I'm rarelly satisfied with any pre-gens created by other people. SO......is there a peice of software that will help me pre-gen 2nd edition characters. I'm looking for something that will automatically figure things like HP, AC, THAC0, proficiency slots, etc. BUT will also alow me to make chages and "bend" the rules as I see fit. I want to be able to alter atribute scores and have the modifiers change automatically. Will the character generation software included with the Core Rules 2.0 do this? And, more importantly, is it any good? Does anyone else market anything that has databases based on all the books (including kits)?

Thanks for the bandwidth.

Chris


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Message 2608 of 6725 Reply

Re: Elven chain.... Ima_Doppleganger
8/2/00 4:33 pm
If you want to have some real fun with Elvin Chain, play it like the original concept, Elves will do just about ANYTHING to keep / remove it from a non-elf. A non-elf with elven chain will be badgered by just about every elf they meet, ie “Where did you get it?” “How did you get it?” “Do you want to sell it?” "did you steal it?" or they will try to steal it, and / or interfere with your daily functions. If you aren’t a adventure of renown and haven’t been given it by an elven king, you probably never have a day of peace while you own it, even from your own party members. Think of Dwarves and mitherail.
Ima

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2605 by blackbart69c

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Message 2609 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/2/00 6:14 pm
Well... like most of us here.. the last thing I'm willing to do is change an aspect of the game I and my players are already comfortable with. In this example it's the timeing sequence of the game.
I only allow one action per round except for attacks if the character is capable of more than one in a turn. It's also a matter of spellcasting not even beginning until the sequence the character rolled, and so until then, nothing is seen. There is nothing that reveals that the spellcaster is going to cast a spell, and so no reason to delay your action till you could actually benefit from a spellcraft roll.
And even without my more strict timeing rules, that still leaves that fact that the charater has already performed his/her action for the round... and is simply not allowed to do anything else... excpecially not cast a spell. Thats like if the party cleric decided to try and use his healing proficiency, and accidentally gave the patient blood poisioning. I wouldn't allow them to suddenly cast anything to remedy that new problem in the same round.
My final problem with the image of a counterspell vs. the way WoTC wants it to work is like this:
Super Street Fighter 2; Turbo Alpha Champion New Challangers Ken does fireball, Ryu sees it coming and exectues his own. Everyone in the area now must make 2 saves, at a penalty (due to more than one going off at the same time) and then take damage based on the levels of the spell casters with a +3/d increase do to both going off simultaiously.
One of my homegrown games had "counterspells" available. It involved a spellcraft check at 1/2 normal chance to determine the spell being cast, knowledge of the spell (has to be one the countering PC had in his spellbook) and a second roll, based on the learn spell percentage. OF course.. neither I as DM nor my players actually used it much. Who wanted to make their magic users delay their actions just to see if the opposition "might" cast a spell....

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2606 by blackbart69c

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Message 2610 of 6725 Reply

Skills & Powers BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/2/00 6:51 pm
I admit it.. it's taken me forever to get around to looking at PO:S&P. And while I've ready many peoples opinions on it (mostly bad) and can see where they are coming from, I have to wonder if PO:S&P isn't the best thing to hit the market.
Yes. The players are capable of min/maxing, ... but unless your only allowing the 3d6 no-assing system, they already are. As for sub-ability abuse... well.. unless a racial trait (which must be purchased) allows for higher, than it's not possible. 19 Muscle on a human isn't possible, because 19 Strength is not "possible" (unless on Athas or using magic to boost). And certain subabilities aren't really worth min/maxing. Do you want your 16 Intellegence Mage to be able to learn only 9 spells per level, and max spell level of 7th (reason 14) but have a 85% chance to learn (18 Knowledge) spell he finds, or 18 spells up to 9th at 60%. Neither is great.. and you'd probably be better off with the 16/16.
Class abilities? Well... an armored mage is going to have to loose between 1 and 3 schools of magic in order to do so. And while many of my players thought that specialists were so "kOOl" to begin with because of the bonus spells per level, let me tell you.. they didn't like it much when they wanted to cast something and found it was in an opposing school. Needless to say.. we don't have specialists any more.
Different weapon selections? Nothing new. Look at kits for examples of both wider and narrower choices. And specialty priests have allowed weird crap right along (Eilistraee of the good drow allowed almost all the spheres, unheard of in a specialty priest, and not only allowed, but required the use of bladed weapons; Reason #1 my 1/2 Drow/ 1/2 Grey Priestess follows her).
The fact that all this man/maxing opens up holes in the characters defenses big enough to drive a truck through is a fairly good reason to allow S&P PC's.. "What, your PC is affraid of spiders? Thats gonna suck to be you since when your character landed from falling in that underground cavern, he awoke in a drow city".
The fact that S&P's reduces the chance a proficiency works is great by me. I've never liked it when a PC who was supposedly a son/daughter of a noble had a better weaponsmithing score than the PC who was apprenticed as a weaponsmith as a child simply because the nobles stat was higher. Now I can "legally" fudge-factor a bonus for the apprenticed PC.
All in all... S&P seems to me what 3rd "should" be. A set of new rules that allow for more customization than the standard. Yes.. many new abilities are available, but you have to loose out somewhere in order to get them. The biggest potential problem I foresee is the multi-classed PC's. But unlike someone elses post, I wouldn't add all the points together and then divide them by the number of classes (or whatever) to show a "lack of practice" or whatever. Since only demi-humans can be multi, they already have level limits, and it takes them longer to get anywhere when multi.. why restrict them like that? Multi-'s have never lost abilities before. I''d suggest simply requireing the Player to sit down & generate the PC with the DM. Then there are no fouls made.
HAND

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Message 2611 of 6725 Reply

Re: Software HRMITT
(30/M/Silverdale, Wa) 8/2/00 9:12 pm
Yes Core Rules 2 Expansion can do all the things you wan't and more. It will let you do creat all of them at one time, one at a time. I have it and I use it for almost everything. You can change stat's, equipment, levels, hitpoints, spells, etc.. anything you need to or want to.

Hrmitt

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2607 by CDHofmann

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Message 2612 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition counter spells Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/3/00 8:39 am
I've always thought that the sequence that was rolled is when the spells actually goes off, and the entire time previous to the rolled sequence is the actual verbal, material, and somatic component sequence is performed. This is why a spellcaster doesn't get his/her dex bonus for A.C. during this time, it's only after the spell has been cast that he regains his/her dex bonus for A.C. The way that you are saying that it is done would mean that on the exact die roll sequence all of the verbal, somatic, and material components are performed as well as the spell actually going off. To me that would seem like the spellcaster is one huge cannon and has a recoil effect every time he/she casts a spell.
Can a spellcaster counter a spell if they have already made an action in the round or do they have to hold their action hoping that they spell that is being cast by the enemy is something that they can actually counter? I would think that they would have to hold their action, that is why they have to have an equal or faster initiative to perform a counter. I personally like the idea. The spellcaster doesn't have a very good chance for countering and could even end up wasteing their action, because if they wait to counter and can't and then get hit by the spell wouldn't they lose their spell. Just a thought. If this is true, it sounds to me like trying to counter is risky business that should only be attempted as a last resort.

Just my two cents.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2609 by BrRaven

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Message 2613 of 6725 Reply

Re: Software Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/3/00 9:05 am
I agree with Hrmitt. CR 2.0 is the way to go. The software has its problems, it isn't perfect, but I love it and also like Hrmitt, I use it incessantly.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2607 by CDHofmann

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Message 2614 of 6725 Reply

Re: Skills & Powers Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/3/00 9:31 am
<>

Again I have to agree to disagree here. I think S&P books unnecessarily complicate the game more with one exception: I like the psionics system in PO better than in the Psionics Handbook, and therefore use it instead (NOTE: I know psionics are a touchy subject for most gamers. Either you love'em or hate'em and I really don't want to open another debate on that subject).

There are a few other elements in the books that I like (the shadow mage, for instance), but as a whole, I like the plain old 2nd edition rules BPO (before Players Option).

<>

No, no, no. Specialist mages are still "kOOl." My players (the few who have played them, that is) love'em. I guess it is a matter of personal taste.

<>

Ahh. Here we agree completely. I've been using alternate weapon selections for clerics even back in the 1st edition, after reading about the concept in a Dragon Magazine article.

To wind this up, I will admit I have never really given the PO books a fair shake. I have never used them in play. I have only read the rules a couple of times (since they were included in the CR2 software).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2610 by BrRaven

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Message 2615 of 6725 Reply

Mage proficiencies madteuton
(31/M/Keyport, NJ) 8/3/00 11:03 am
Just a bat in my belfry (and this may be covered somewhere already I am just unaware): I wonder why mages never had the option to use weapon proficiencies in things like wands, rings, scrolls, etc. Giving them plusses to hit and such when they use these items? Thoughts?


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Message 2616 of 6725 Reply

Re: Mage proficiencies Evertree
8/3/00 1:07 pm
"I wonder why mages never had the option to use weapon proficiencies in things like wands, rings, scrolls, etc. Giving them plusses to hit and such when they use these items?"

You mean some sort of meta-magic to enhance the functioning of the items? It would take magical energy to manipulate magical energies, so spell slots would be used to do such things.

Or do you mean the few magic items that require a To-Hit roll? That option would seen a waste as there are too few items and spells to make that worth the proficiency slot or skill point used.

It's an interesting thought, but I don't see much use in it.


E.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2615 by madteuton

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Message 2617 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition counter spells BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/3/00 3:25 pm
Well, again, this is simply how I and those I play with have chosen to handle the timing sequence. We broke it down like this.

A player rolls a 5 for initiative. Depending on what he now chooses to do, it's modified some number of sequences. If this player had both long sword & short sword profiecencies, the final initiative would be modified differently ( +3 for the short sword, +5 for the long) for a total of either 8 or 10. If instead he had chosen to punch it would have been at 7 (I usually imply a straight +1 factor to any hand to hand combat procedure unless the character isn't occidental, in which case he has a list of things to try, all with different speeds).
Now following the same line, if said character had chosen to cast Magic Missile, The casting time of one would make for an modifier of +1. That means, in sequence #5 the character begins casting the spell, and it goes off in sequence #6. If casting Darkness 15', the mod would be 2, so sequence #7. As it's determined in my games, the time from the beginning of the round until the initiative sequence (35 in the above) is spent preparing to cast... centering ones-self as it were. And while it's obvious enough to any PC who has seen it once or twice as the Mage preparing to cast... It's no more obvious what he's going to cast than it is what a meditating monk is thinking about. An attack will however disrupt the mage as this centering time is when it's pulled forward to be used, and because of the calmness needed, Dex bonuses aren't gained (hard to be calm while trying to jump around).
Again... I'm not saying I'm "doing it right" and everyone else is "doing it wrong". This is simply the system that I've developed after playing AD&D since 1984. I myself needed something more exact than what I had available, and now that I'm comfortable with it, I'm not changing it for anyone... ecspecially not the creators of Tragic: the Garnering.

And PS: Yes I bust on M:tG.. and I did play it. So I feel I'm entitled to pick on Magerk: the Addiction.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2612 by Jiriki13

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Message 2618 of 6725 Reply

Re: Skills & Powers BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/3/00 3:56 pm
I think the biggest thing about S&P that makes me like it, where as I have a problem with the upcoming 3rd Edition is the changes available.
In S&P mages >>might<< be able to wear armor. While I fear that WoTC may choose to allow armor as standard in 3rd (I don't know for sure.. don't want to either. Would fit with the "easier" idea though). In 3rd however, any race can be a paladin? Not in my games, and not in S&P. Dwarven mages? 3rd edition sure.. but last I knew, even if you used demi-human kits for bards, Dwarven Chanters gained extra resistance to spells they learned, not the ability to actualy cast them.
I agree, S&P's does increase the complexity of the game exponentially. But I have to admit thats exactly what I like most. I got out of D&D because I wanted something more than a Lawful Elf or a Neutral Thief. The fact that some of the options don't bother me is mostly because I've allowed some variety of them right along.. and these seem even more balanced to me. (I used to allow multi-classed mages armor, but gave them penalties to cast in the form of intellegence tests. Now I simply have to make them give up schools muhahaha ;) )
I guess in the end I will have to allow S&P's in a game before I can make a final decision, but for my gaming style.. the rules wont be much of a change.
I think the best local for using S&P's would be in a homegrown world though, where the "rules" can be suspended where desired, because the characters wouldn't necessarily know anything is different anyway, while a PC from Toril is gonna be noticed if he's a Mage in full plate.
HAND

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2614 by Umbratikus

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Message 2619 of 6725 Reply

DragonLance BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/3/00 4:02 pm
I'm about to show just how far behind the times I am in some cases.. but thats ok.. I don't mind.
Was an official second edition of Dragonlance ever released? I was just curious because while posting about specialists earlier I was thinking about how many either I or my players have ever played... and the only ones I could think of were when we played on Krynn. And while I have my old book laying around here somewhere.. I was wondering if that 5th Age thing I saw a million years ago was the 2E version,... or some other thing.. and what kind of changes were made to the world in it.
Thanx.. HAND


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Message 2620 of 6725 Reply

Re: Skills & Powers Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/3/00 4:36 pm
I've never agreed with only humans being allowed to be paladins. I don't see why there can't be a dwarven or half-elf paladin. The only standard races that I can see not being allowed to be paladins is elves and halflings, because I don't think that there are any lawful good deities for these races. Dwarves on the other hand have a few and half-elves can usually worship either elven or human deities, if they worship a human deity why can't they be a paladin of that deity.
I do agree with dwarven wizards, not to mention others, taking it too far. How do they plan to explain the dwarven magical malfunction chances just disappearing.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2618 by BrRaven

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Message 2621 of 6725 Reply

Westchester County, NY gamers needed prolixlacuna
8/3/00 7:38 pm
Anyone in Westchester County, NY looking for a 3E game? I'm looking to start one up once the 3E rules come out. Join my club if you are interested.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/westchesterny3rdeddandd


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Message 2622 of 6725 Reply

Racial Paladins & why they don't work BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/3/00 8:39 pm
Yeah!
I knew If I brought it up someone would point it out. So here is why only Humans are allowed to be Paladins according to the word of Raven. Other peoples choices to bend the rules are fine... but this is how I see it.
A Paladin is not a just a holy warrior, but a virtuous example of the war against "evil" and "sin". They live their lives NOT to be Paladins, but to promote the values of True Lawful Good to the best possible by a mortal. They hope to bring about a better world by showing others HOW to live their lives.
An elf would not be able to be a Paladin except in the most extreme exceptions for several reasons. #1: They value individuality too much. In their opinion... who are they to tell someone else how to live their life. #2: They look at the long term picture. Mortal creatures are capable of misjudgements, and with misjudgements come "evil" and "sin". No matter what they do... someone somewhere is always going to do something that someone calls evil. Therefore they only need to concern themselves with their lives, or evil on such a scale that it threatens all of creation.
Similarly Dwarves wiouldn't be possible of the mindset necessary of a Paladin. Chivalrous nature and honorable accord are foreign to dwarves at large. Pragmatic to the core, dwarves would think nothing of attacking, or even killing an Evil opponent while he/she was unarmed, simply because "Why wait? It makes the task easier". Frivoloties such as the plesentries Paladins show to strangers ("Good Day good lady") and villians ("Doest thou have any last requests") are things they don't shower upon their closest friends.
Halflings? *snicker*... right... "I'll dispatch the beast as soon as I finish my supper". The jovial nature of halflings would keep most of them trying to talk "evil" into being "good" in exchange for dinner and a song.
The only race that might more naturally come upon the mindset necessary for a Paladin is Half-Elf.. and there's a good reason they don't become them. 1/2 Elves aren't trusted. Read any sourcebook.. and you'll see mention of how half's are disowned by human and elf cultures alike. How is someone going to be a symbol of goodness that everyone respects when No-one can look beyond their dual-racial nature?
Only humans are common enough to be accepted by the majority of mortals, live short enough lives to feel they MUST do something, are frivilous enough to wait for someone who is their superior to be armed before attacking, and self-rightious enough to determine THEY know whats best for everyone else.
This is not to say that the other races do not have "shining examples".. but that those examples are almost always the Priests & Priestesses of whom the race most revere. Demi-humans aren't going to give a second thought to a mortal.. even one of their own kind, trying to tell them what to do. but a priest... whom is in touch with their gods... they >>>might<<< have an in as to whats really going on.
All this can be exemplified by the idea that Paladins do not gain the greater ear of the gods like Priests, and that Priests can very well BE warriors of faith, not just "men & women of the cloth". In the end.. think of Paladins as the religious right who calls D&D "evil" (And believe me.. they still exist). They are people who are trying to bring about a "better world".. but really... they only promote what THEY think is right.. not what something divine does.
Just my take on it... but a take that will prevent my players from being demi-human paladins long after D&D 76th edition is released. And if they really cared.. they've always known where the door was.
HAND

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2620 by Jiriki13

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Message 2623 of 6725 Reply

Other changes to AD&D we'd like to see BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/3/00 9:15 pm
Since there seems to be a good deal of commotion about what "should" and "should not" be a standard rules change to AD&D, I was wondering what other changes people in this group would like to see.
I know I for one would think the alignment restriction on Druids should go. While I've played many druids in my day... and I've always taken the alignement seriously.. I must admit I don't agree with it.
Coming from an unbroken line of Druids in real life.. I can tell you that we.. no matter are paticular sect... are anything but True Neutral. We have our goals, beliefs and traditions that are often as self serving as Lawful evil, and yet some of us are as giving and unselfish as a Paladin could only hope to be.
Only Nature (as in storms, rocks, trees etc.) are "True Neutral". People are not.. and their not capable of it.. even in a fantasy game. Some variety of give and take is at hand. Unless we have players here who have actually had their Druids acting in a chaotic evil nature constantly while in a party with a Paladin. Because they would have to "to keep the balance".
I'm sure I've just opened a whole can of worms now = )
HAND


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Message 2624 of 6725 Reply

Re: Racial Paladins & why they don't wor Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/4/00 8:31 am
As I stated, I agree with elves, halflings, and maybe even gnomes not being able to be paladins. Gnomes I simply don't know enough about because I have never played one and nobody that I have DM'd has ever played one either.
As for dwarves and half-elves. So it is beyond any dwarf to be chivalrous or honorable at all. The way you generalize the attitudes of dwarves could also be applied to humans. Very few humans have the attitudes and beliefs necessary to be a paladin, and there would be an even greater minority in the demi-human races. The dwarven race is probably more chivalrous and honorable than many other races as a whole. Why can't a dwarf be merciful to his enemies? I do think that there would be much fewer dwarven paladins than human ones, but that it would still be possible. One more thing, I want to know when being a paladin had anything to do with be accepted by other mortals.
I have a similar stance with half-elves. It doesn't matter that they are generally distrusted or shunned by other mortals. That gives the paladin something to work toward and to change, other than fighting evil. In the process of doing good deeds and fighting evil, don't you think that those deeds would eventually overshadow his/her heritage in the view of other people in general. This would make a great paladin of Ilmater(a forgotten realms god of suffering, etc.).
I guess we just have different views on the subject. I would allow a dwarf or half-elf, but only under the right circumstances.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2622 by BrRaven

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Message 2625 of 6725 Reply

Re: Mage proficiencies Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/4/00 9:03 am
I couldn't see an item giving a mage a weapon proficiency, but I could see, say, a "ring of smiting" or some such, that is usable only by a mage, and gives the wearer "to hit" and "damage" bonus with whatever weapon he is using. In fact, this item could be usable with any class. There are other things to consider, though, like whether the weapon used is then considered a magical weapon (for purposes of fighting creatures only hit by such). To keep this item from being abused, perhaps it can have charges, with one charge expended for every successful hit. I dunno. Just brainstorming.

I was a player in a campaign once where the DM had created a "mage warrior" spell. If I recall, correctly, it changed the mage in question into a fighter of equal level, with all the benefits thereof. The spell had a limited duration (like three rounds per level,) and the mage could use no mage abilities while the spell was in effect. I don't remember whether it gave the mage more hit points or not. I think it did give him proficiency in a single weapon, though, maybe even specialization or an increased strength. I don't really remember all the details.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2615 by madteuton

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Message 2626 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition counter spells Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/4/00 9:30 am
I run my initiative almost exactly the same way, except that I don't use weapon modifiers as it tends to slow things down (okay, that orc has a mace, and that one a halberd, and that one...). I only charge a penalty if the weapon isn't readied.
I run 10 segments to the round, so if a mage had a casting time of 4, and his initiative roll was a 7 or more, his spell wouldn't go off until the next round. If the mage then wanted to do something else in the round his spell went off, he would have to roll initiative. He would only be able to act that round if his initiative roll put him in that 10 segment window.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2617 by BrRaven

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Message 2627 of 6725 Reply

Re: Racial Paladins & why they don't wor Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/4/00 9:45 am
Exemplary treatment of paladins, Raven.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2622 by BrRaven

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Message 2628 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes to AD&D we'd like to s Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/4/00 10:04 am
Most Druids in my campaign tend to act more NG than N, so I can see your point. I would say if the restriction on aligment was changed, I would say that the Druid should be at least partially Neutral (LN, CN, NG, or NE). The neutrality sould be an ideal that they shoot for. Perhaps, when they become a Hierophant Druid or something similar, they can evolve to true Neutral.

On the other hand, if druids always strive to mimic Nature's way, then the constant pursuit of that goal could be considered Neutrality. By always making the current situation analagous to a situation in Nature, what would Nature do? This also would sponsor an attitude of non-interference. Not interfering when a young child is being devoured by a wolf might be seen as evil to some, but it is not in the eyes of a Druid. It is Nature's way. The Druid is being "Neutral." The Neutral Druid may also not help the father of that child hunt down the beast, because vengeance is not found in Nature. Alternately, he may help defend the child from the wolf, because being human, he may feel a kinship there and defend the youth as a mother bear would defend her young. This, too, could be Neutrality. I think if a Druid always looks to Nature for examples to follow, that could acceptably be construed as Neutrality from the Druid's perspective. Nature is a delicate balance. The preservation of, and the application of that balance is what Druid Neutrality is all about.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2623 by BrRaven

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Message 2629 of 6725 Reply

Re: Racial Paladins & why they don't wor Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/4/00 10:55 am
I see your point and it is a good one. I had similar thoughts about half-elf paladins although the situation has never come up in my campaign.

We could simplify the matter and say that only LG deities of the human pantheon allow paladinhood, and since they are of the human pantheon, they allow only pure blooded humans. Other races can be as virtuous and bright and shiny as they want, but can never achieve paladinhood simply because their deities cannot (or choose not to) grant those abilities. A cop out, perhaps, but it works.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2624 by Jiriki13

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Message 2630 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition counter spells Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/4/00 12:04 pm
So you make a spellcaster use thier modifiers for initiative when they cast spells, but not a weapon user when they use weapons. Sounds to me like that system kind of penalizes spellcasters.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2626 by Umbratikus

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Message 2631 of 6725 Reply

Re: Holy Warriors knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/4/00 12:07 pm
Just like the Knights of Takhisis from Dragonlance, they are a perfect example of a evil paladin with chivalric morals.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2603 by blackbart69c

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Message 2632 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes to AD&D we'd like to s Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/4/00 12:09 pm
I agree with the second paragraph, but I can't see a druid being CN or NE. I also find it kind of weird that a druid would be LN. NG I can see.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2628 by Umbratikus

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Message 2633 of 6725 Reply

Re: Druids and Neutrality knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/4/00 12:11 pm
I agree with BrRaven about the whole neutrality alignment restriction, but I guess TSR/WoTC/Hasbro was trying to go for the typical mysterious figure in the woods or whatever that we always see in many of those old sword and sorcery movies.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2623 by BrRaven

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Message 2634 of 6725 Reply

The AD&D movie! knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/4/00 12:14 pm
Speaking of sword & sorcery movies-

NOVEMBER 19th, 2000 is the release date for the Dungeons and Dragons movie, starring Marlon Wayans, Jeremy Irons, Justin Whalin, and a few others!


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Message 2635 of 6725 Reply

Re: The AD&D movie! madteuton
(31/M/Keyport, NJ) 8/4/00 12:16 pm
Tss, is there any reason to believe it's not going to suck ass?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2634 by knightmare6

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Message 2636 of 6725 Reply

Dragon Magazine Archives CD-Rom question knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/4/00 12:17 pm
Does anyone her have the Dragon Magazine Archive? And if so, do you know if there are any downloads for the issues after #250?


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Message 2637 of 6725 Reply

Re: The AD&D movie! knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/4/00 12:23 pm
The pics so far seem to be great!
Pics I've seen so far that do justice:
1- Jeremy Irons (Mage, villain) using the 'Burning Hands' spell
2- a group of Orcs sitting at a bar drinking ale
3- Marlon Wayans (thief) jumping out of a tree, backstabbing a Orc
4- Red Dragon fighting a Gold Dragon in the air, behind them you see a Blue Dragon firing its breath weapon at a dodging Silver Dragon.
5- Jeremy Irons using the 'Magic Missile' spell

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2635 by madteuton

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Message 2638 of 6725 Reply

new to the casper wy sngngcrow
(31/M/denver, colorado) 8/4/00 1:43 pm
i am new to the casper wyoming area & am looking for gamers. Either experienced or new. If you're interested send me an e-mail.


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Message 2639 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes to AD&D we'd like to s HRMITT
(30/M/Silverdale, Wa) 8/4/00 2:07 pm
I find that alignments are mostly misunderstood by my Players. The current group I'm DM'ing need to have it explained for them.
I find that an alignment is what will over all define the actions of a PC/NPC. The Druid as an example, would want over all balance, just because the Druid is in a party with a Paladin would force him to act CE just to maintain balance. The Druid must strive to maintain over all balance. He/she must answer the following question; Is what the party doing supporting over all balance or not? If it is no, then he'll can't support it or he will have to oppose them/it. If it is yes then he can support.
Every PC/NPC will & should have periods of time or single events were they shift into other alignments. This is where he/she has tendencies. A LN may at times do things that are LG and others that are LE, but for the most part they are supporting/being LN.
Some classes can shift without major penalties while others have a harder time or greater consequence for deviating from the alignment.
It is up the DM to set the tolerances he will allow.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2628 by Umbratikus

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Message 2640 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes to AD&D we'd like to s Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/4/00 3:04 pm
I also think that alignment is a general guideline for how someone will act in most situations. I don't agree with your statement about druids though. Just because a paladin and druid are in the same group doesn't mean that the druid is going to act CE. I believe that druids are about sustaining the balance as it relates to the world, not in the party. As long as the paladin(or other non-neutral PC) is working towards something that will prevent one side from gaining a measurable edge over the other, then the druid is all for supporting and helping the party. If the goal that they are working towards doesn't affect the balance at all, then the druid probably isn't going to care either way. Also, if the party is working toward a goal that will upset the balance, then of course the druid is most likely going to oppose them. I just think that druids look at the bigger picture when determining what cause is worth they're time.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2639 by HRMITT

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Message 2641 of 6725 Reply

Re: The AD&D movie! Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/4/00 3:08 pm
This is great. The last that I had heard was stateing that the movie wouldn't be out until next summer. I'm looking forward to the movie very much. It has some very good actor/actresses and seems as though the plot will work.
Where did you see those shots? I looked on the wizards web site and I don't remember seeing anything with spellcasting in it. Maybe I just missed them or didn't recognize the shot for what it was.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2634 by knightmare6

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Message 2642 of 6725 Reply

Re: The AD&D movie! knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/4/00 4:23 pm
They were in the new WoTC catalog!

You can also see a couple of shots from various websites about the movie. I used the AOL search engine (Dungeons, Dragons, movie).

I definitely can't wait to see the final fight/battle with the 150 dragons fighting each other in the air! Red, blue, silver, gold oh my!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2641 by Jiriki13

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Message 2643 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes to AD&D we'd like to s Ima_Doppleganger
8/4/00 9:32 pm
I think the concept of neutrality as far as druids are concerned, means that they don’t care one way or the other about human / demi-human concerns. If a Good soul is disturbing nature, i.e. a farmer clear cutting to make more fields and feed more people, he would be stopped. Evil orcs killing homesteaders trying to push back the forest would be left alone. They are devoted to Nature, good / evil, law / chaos, "the Balance" means absolutely nothing to them. Ima

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2639 by HRMITT

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Message 2644 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes to AD&D we'd like to s maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 8/5/00 12:12 pm
True, though I'm sure that most druids would rather work with good aligned beings than evil. Its much easier to negotiate forest clearing with a human government than it is with a band of orcs.

Not that the humans are likely to stop, just that they won't kill you for bringing up the subject

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2643 by Ima_Doppleganger

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Message 2645 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes (Alignments) BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/6/00 12:12 am
Haveing read everyones coments, I'd like to say I both agree most emphatically, and couldn't agree more strongly.
Did I confuse everyone yet? = )

I agree that the alignment, as written, are hard to follow as much more than a loose collection of ideas on how to handle a paticular situation; and that in many cases, the rules for alignments are sorely lacking in the clarification needed. (read NOT EASY, hinthinthint " A demi-human who wanted to serve his diety wouldn't go half way and become a Paladin... but instead a Priest/cleric (BTW, I don't allow "Clerics" in my games.. everyone is a specialty priest.. just another >>>personal<<< choice) or at least a Crusader (qv. S&P if nowhere else.)
And yes.. these are generalizations.. and yes... exceptions can be made & do exist. But for years TSR warned us that we needed to avoid the "humans in funny suits" mentality... that demi-humans WEREN'T human.. and that they didn't think and act like humans. Now WoTC/etc. try to give us just that on a plate and many of us eat it up (not looking down on anyone.. just not agreeing to jump on the bandwagon) And so yes I generalize sometimes... but the rules have always told us that >>we<<, as DM's, could change the rules to OUR liking. Which means many of us have probably already experimented with demi-human's with "exceptional" classes.. and either chosen to allow them, or not. But with 3rd Edition... that ALL GOES AWAY!. How do you tell the player in your group who wants to play a 3rd Edition Dwarven Paladin/Mage he can't? Before it was "It's not allowed"... now it's going to be "Umm... cuz I dont wanna allow it?" Thanks for nada WoTC/et al.
HAND, Shade & cool breezes to all....


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Message 2647 of 6725 Reply

Re: More on Paladins. shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 8/6/00 7:29 am
One of the best players I have gamed with played a Paladin to a god of farming and the common man .. the paladin was neither self-centered nor self-rightious .. and, in my opinion, well-played paladins should not be.

They should not see themselves as better than others, should not care about fame or fortune .. they should be driven to serve their diety, their religious order, and their fellow man. They should be more than willing to provide assistance to those in need, and if their diety is one of tolerance, it should not matter what alignment or faith the recipient of their kindness is. When the time comes to do battle in the name of good or their diety, they should be quick to take up arms and rally others to do the same.

How many people do you know that are self-rightious and self-centered that have a better than average Charisma .. I would bet that most of them are not clergy, but politicians.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2646 by BrRaven

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Message 2648 of 6725 Reply

Re: More on Paladins. BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/6/00 2:50 pm
>>they should be driven to serve their diety, their religious order, and their fellow man. <<<
LOL.
Everyone looks at the Paladins Priestly spells and says... hrmmm... holy warrior. But note... as taken from the PHB "The paladin is a warrior bold and pure, the exemplar of everything good and true. Like the fighter, the paladin is a man of combat. However, the paladin lives for the ideals of righteousness, justice, honesty, piety, and chivalry. He strives to be a living example of these virtues so that others might learn from him as well as gain by his actions."
Again I point out... Paladins are warriors first, pious people second (or if we are going according to the PHB, 4th). Of course.. like any character we play.. how we choose to develop their personality is a different thing. It's easier to assume some great kinship between Priests and Paladins. But if Paladins are just holy warriors... why can they be only LG? There are no gods of Chaotic Good Alignment who would desire warriors?

>>How many people do you know that are self-rightious and self-centered that have a better than average Charisma .. I would bet that most of them are not clergy, but politicians. <<
You're right... and thank goodness that Paladins aren't clergy (again... their Warriors, not Priests) and very nearly are politicians in many sourcebooks and novels... wonder why that is.
So again I say... Paladins are mortals who wish to lead others under the guise of religious right. It doesn't mean however that since they can cast a few spells that they really are clergy any more than Jim & Tammy Fae Baker were real clergy. Paladins choose to live their life as an example, and if they're "good" enough, and they advance far enough.. a god >>might<< grant them spells. But spells do not a priest make any more than they make a bard a mage.
HAND... (appology to shinto_gajin for using his post as a base for this newest rant)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2647 by shinto_gaijin

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Message 2649 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes (Alignments) Ima_Doppleganger
8/6/00 10:31 pm
WHAT?! <> WHAT?! First of all, druid would not clear cut or burn a forest, while they do realize that a forest fire is a natural way for the forest to clear itself of underbrush and propagate (some cones won’t open unless burned) they would certainly not start, or add to the effect of, a forest fire. One of the basic tenants of neutrality is the survival of the fittest, if an area of forest is diseased, its natural and therefore part of the circle of life. Do you really think druids are against miles of virgin forest or old growth forest? Once you start a forest fire you can’t control it, and no druid, a keeper of nature, would be foolish enough to do that.
Ima

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2645 by BrRaven

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Message 2650 of 6725 Reply

Re: More on Paladins. shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 8/7/00 6:06 am
No offense taken.

>>So again I say... Paladins are mortals who wish to lead others under the guise of religious right.

My PHB, (2nd Ed., 2nd Printing) says: "The paladin is a noble and heroic warrior, the symbol of all that is right and true in the world. As such, he has high ideals that he must maintain at all times .. Lawfulness and good deeds are the meat and drink of a paladin .. A paladin will cooperate with characters of other alignments only as long as they behave themselves. He will try to show them the proper way to live through both word and deed."

My example of clergy vs. politician was a bad one, while you are correct that they should not be clergy (but part of their personal mission may be to serve the church) but, most emphatically, they should not be politicians .. there is not a good parallel for paladins to compare to modern life, as nearly every holy or philanthropic order has been tainted in some way (especially the "religious right").

This is fantasy, after all.

s/g

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2648 by BrRaven

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Message 2651 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes (Alignments) Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/7/00 8:29 am
This is totally out there. Just because an order of evil knights are lawful and there by honor bound to uphold their agreements, by no means makes them good. Even though they believe what they are doing is right, doesn't make it a good act either. These type of people will most times only honor bound if they give their word to another and while they may have a certain code that has honorable traits, this normally means that they show honor towards those that are there equals, i.e. other knights, good or evil. I doubt that they would think twice about subjugating an entire town with violence or the threat of violence if needed. They may be lawful(have a twisted honor code), not good.
Why would a druid of today want to clear-cut and burn a forest? I must be missing something in this statement. A druids first concern is to preserve nature and the balance of good vs. evil. They may not even care that much about good vs. evil if it doesn't affect natural surroundings.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2645 by BrRaven

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Message 2652 of 6725 Reply

Re: More on Paladins. Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/7/00 8:35 am
I agree with the comments about 3E, but if you're the DM and you aren't comfortable with allowing the demi-humans can be anything rule; then don't. You're players will get over it and continue to play something that you do allow. The best thing to do, if you plan to play with 3E rules, is to sit down with your players before creating anythig and explain YOUR rules to them.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2646 by BrRaven

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Message 2653 of 6725 Reply

Starting Up Again. Calitrojan
8/7/00 9:14 am
I have recently formed a new live group and I am having trouble coming up with a starting scenario to bring the group together into a party. Here is the run down of the characters.
priest of mischeif/thief halfling
priest of magic/mage half elf
ranger human
wilderness runner elf
priest of thunder/war

I was hoping ot establish a home base for the group ina small village near an abandoned castle on a cliff and an abandoned liumber camp in the woods... I have come up with a few story plots, but nothing fabulous to get things rolling and get the group together

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Message 2654 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3rd Edition counter spells Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/7/00 10:07 am
<>

I never really thought about it that way, but in a
way, I do penalize spellcasters. My campaign is a
low-magic campaign, so it works okay for me. I tend to
think of casting times as just that; the time it takes
the spellcaster to cast the spell, using his VS&M
components as applicable. If you have a weapon ready, then I
don't see why you can't just attack in sequence with
your initiative roll. Yes, I know that some weapons
are more unwieldy than others, and so forth, but it
works for me. Combat moves a lot faster if you don't
have to add modifiers to everone's initiative roll
every round, especially when you have large groups of
NPC's with a variety of weapons.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2630 by Jiriki13

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Message 2655 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes to AD&D we'd like to s Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/7/00 10:17 am
<>

I find it weird, too. My point (I think) was that every human has some sort of opinions or values that spoil True Neutrality. I have a hard time believing that True Neutral is actually possible.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2632 by Jiriki13

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Message 2656 of 6725 Reply

Re: The AD&D movie! Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/7/00 10:20 am
I remember when they were talking about a D&D movie back before the 2nd edition was even released. I am having a hard time getting excited about this film for some reason. I love Jeremy Irons, though. It will be an obligatory film for me. Now the Lord of the Rings movies, on the other hand; those I can get excited about. I think the last release date I heard for Fellowship of the Ring was Christmas 2001. There is a trailer out there on the net somewhere. Is there a trailer for the D&D movie?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2634 by knightmare6

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Message 2657 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes (Alignments) Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/7/00 11:17 am
I think an effort should be made in everyone's game to get a firm grasp on the alignment system. I agree that it is one of the least understood aspects of the game, but at the same time, it can be one of the most rewarding. Role playing alignments faithfully requires a lot of inward philosophizing and looking at things from different points of view. Most players (in my experience, anyway) don't really play alignment faithfully. They pretty much play in line with their own personal system of values and beliefs and then say things like "Oh, I can't do that because that would be evil, and I'm Chaotic Good." I have had many sessions in the past with my players, just discussing what alignment means to them and how it can be played. Sometimes I will throw out situations and then we would discuss how the various aligment viewpoints would interpret it. That is a lot of fun in itself.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2645 by BrRaven

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Message 2658 of 6725 Reply

Re: Starting Up Again. Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/7/00 11:31 am
It sounds like you've got things rolling along nicely so far. Try reading through the Dungeoncraft articles in Dragon magazine. They sound like they might be right up your alley at this stage. You can read them all (up through Dragon #268) on the WotC website ( http://www.wizards.com/Dragon/article.asp?cat=main&file=dungeoncraft ). Alternately, if you are really stuck, you could flip through some issues of Dungeon magazine for ideas, or even buy a store-bought module (Like the Shattered Circle. I haven't read it, but I understand it is for 1st level adventurers). Personally I would rather write my adventures from scratch, but sometimes you need a little boost.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2653 by Calitrojan

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Message 2659 of 6725 Reply

Casting Time messiah_of_metal
(M/FL) 8/7/00 3:36 pm
About how long is Casting Time 1? Is it one second, 10 seconds, 5 seconds? I ask this because I was playing in another DM's campaine and this wizard put all 3 of us asleep at different times. Heres what happened:
We had to escort this wizard to a tower because this other wizard had a score to settle. This wizard we were escorting was a lvl 1. The order we were walking in was 2 bards in the front, the wizard, then me. We had a rope tied around the eizard so he wouldnt run off.. the wizard was also holding a tourch. Well, he cut the rope with his concealed dagger, dropped the tourch, and casted a sleep spell and put me to sleep without me getting to do nothing. We were walking 2/3 our normal pace to be catatious.. and I argued when I saw the rope fall to the ground and him drop the tourch and him start to chant that I would have enough time to do an action. He said I wouldnt because sleep has a casting time of 1. So In conclusion, he put all of us to sleep and got away with the spoon.

View Replies to this Message

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Message 2660 of 6725 Reply

Re: Casting Time BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/7/00 4:14 pm
The casting time, in general, is the amount of time it takes to cast a spell, from start to finish. A bigger, and more complicated spell has a longer casting time. In general, any spell listed with only a number for a casting time means it has a casting time of that many "segments", or fractions of a round. Spells which take longer usually have a casting time listed as "1 round" or "1 Turn".
What you describe sounds to me like your DM, either through malice or misunderstanding (I'm not qualified to say which... I don't know the person LOL) of the casting time rules, replaced the initiative with the casting time. Again... perhaps not.. but does sound resonable.
Hope this helps to clarify what >>>might<<< have happened.
HAND

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2659 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2661 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes (Alignments) BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/7/00 4:34 pm
So what many people seem to be saying is that everyone inherently KNOWS if they are being bad or good (so be good for goodness sake)?
Jeffery Dalhmer to this day proclaims he did nothing wrong by eating people, Charles Manson states that it was his mission in life to slay his victims.. and Adof Hitler ravaged an ethnic group because "it was the right thing to do for purity".
Alignments are subjective. He who wins the war rights the history books. If Hitler had won, he would today be proclaimed a hero (and during his time, was by many of his people). The same would apply to any person, in any world (real, AD&D etc) who ferverently believed what they were doing was right. The Knights Takisis, whom are honor bound to serve their goddess, have religious right behind them. Their goddess has told them that what they do IS right... and so any true believer would belive that their goddess' way is the right way. Therefore.. they aren't evil.. everyone else is. (Sound like the Nazi's to anyone else?)
And as for Druids clear-cutting sections of Yosemite... well... I personally know at least 3 who are curently in Yosemite doing just that. And they aren't destroying nature.. they ARE restoring the balance. Years of mankinds intervention with fires and natural selection have litered the park with overgrowth and dead wood which makes the entire park a tinderbox waiting to go up. They are choosing to remove sections (with government approval I might add) in order to help keep "us" from loosing the whole park. Because of man... the entire park IS diseased.
And yet... those who read and were shocked.. made my point. It doesn't "seem" like the right thing to do in order to maintain the balance.. but the fact is... the balance was already off centered by the green groups who proclaimed that forest fires and logging was bad. It wasn't bad.. it was excessive. There was no control against it to begin with.. and then too much control that even nature couldn't keep the balance.
AD&D was written to be played (primarily) as a game of heroic champions. As such, good was defined as most of us see it, and evil as what we weren't supposed to do. But in the end... If you think something you do isn't wrong... to you.. it isn't.
HAND =)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2651 by Jiriki13

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Message 2662 of 6725 Reply

Timing Sequences BrRaven
(26/M/Tesetelinestéa) 8/7/00 5:08 pm
Umbratikus
I see exactly where your going with your initiative rules, and while I do agree that most of the time they would be fine... It does leave me wondering...
Multiple weapon attacks per round: Even before (or without) weapon modifiers, how do you determine multiple attacks in one round if the attacker has an initiative that places his attack at the end of a round?
The rules you gave as how you run a rounds timing sequence are almost text book... but I have to admit, I didn't like text book right along LOL.
Having played Shadowrun since 1990, I found that I much prefered the general way the initiatve system that game had to that of AD&D. It was more flexible, and allowed for a more exact ruling than "your second attack happens at the end of the round". Of course.. it needed to be reversed for AD&D's combat system, and it has it's drawbacks as well (book-keeping), but for my play style (and the use of the critical hits & misses chart I use) it is far more helpful to me. While I don't suggest you change (If what you have works for you.. more power to you) I would like to explain what I use.
Each person rolls their own initiative at the beginning of combat. That number becomes a constant through the rest of the fight, unless an individual is removed from the fight and then returns (teleported etc, only to return later). Then, each person announces their action, modifing it based weapon speeds and reaction adjustments for high Dex (full amount on the first round if one party is surprised, 1/2 round down there after). This total give the individuals a segment number in which they act... and means that most of the time one individual will act before another. I case with ties, the one who rolled the lower (better) initiative goes first, and if still a tie the one with the larger Dex modifier. Only if still a tie do the actions occur simulationously.
Most of the time this means minor cosmetic changes to the rules, but then comes multiple attacks and/or hasted individuals. If an individual is capable of more than one attack, or is hasted, 10 segments after their first action they are capable of performing a second. I do allow hasted spellcasters to cast a second spell, though I give a chance for misfire and use the magic surge table if they blow it.
This means that am capable of allowing my magess access to their Dex adjustment before and after a spell is cast (begins casting on the initial initiative roll, completes casting time later with multiple round casting times completeing the segment before their initative on the final round.) and allows my players to attempt to make a called shot against body locations to prevent an oncoming attack ("I'll hit his hand to make him drop his sword before he can hit me"). Granted... they don't always take advantage of this.. but hey.. every once in awhile.
So by looking at this you could see why I wouldn't allow counter spells in my games. The mage (or priest even, because IF I was to give one the ability, I'd give it to both ) would have to be hasted to even try.. and even then wouldn't finish in time.
Just an alternative way of looking at initiative.
HAND

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2626 by Umbratikus

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Message 2663 of 6725 Reply

Demolitions and an Idea messiah_of_metal
(M/FL) 8/7/00 7:16 pm
The Demolitions
Is there a demolitions proficiency? Ya know... to make explosives. If there is what are the requriments on it. I was talking to a friend about it and he said there were dwarfs who made explosives.

An Idea
Heres a fun campaine idea. The PC's get in trouble some how (Maybe framed for a robbery) and a rich powerful man makes a deal with him. If the PC's take his daughter on a date and make her happy, than they are off the hook... if not than its back to the big house. So every night a different PC takes this mans daughter on a date.. but her little brother try to sabatoge it. He will be pulling pranks all night on the PC's. Maybe he pourd super glue on the PC's chair.. and then the rich mans daughter wants to dance.. sick things like that. That would be a fun campaine to run for good laughs.


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Message 2664 of 6725 Reply

Re: Casting Time DarkLiege
8/7/00 8:01 pm
A casting time of 1 is 1 segment or 6 seconds.

Your DM sounds like a bad one. It's not reasonable that a Mage could escape in that manner. If your PC was tied up carrying a torch in the middle of 3 NPCs, could you have escaped like that? Most likely not.

Beware of DM's that use different (and more beneficial) rules for their NPCs than they do for the Players.

<<>>

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2659 by

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Message 2665 of 6725 Reply

New PLAYERS and leaders wanted! wulfgar_dra_guun
(30/M/Victoria, BC) 8/7/00 11:25 pm
You got it!... anyone looking for a play by e-mail AD&D game are welcome to submit a character. This is the ultimate RPG arena combat game... taking the current standards and stretching to new levels. There's virtually no limits to how many characters join.

The game starts in less then two weeks... so we need players. The PC Submission page was JUST posted and there's plenty of room for new players.

Check it out...

http://members.amethyst-alliance.com/arena/Brawling_Blades/Throne_Room.htm

And if you want to play... submit your character through the Court Yard. We look forward to seeing you there.

Sincerely,

Wulfgar


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Message 2666 of 6725 Reply

Re: Demolitions and an Idea knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/8/00 3:04 am
go here:

http://www.geocities.com/knightmare6/RPGarchives.html

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2663 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2667 of 6725 Reply

what doth ye all think? wren_the_elven_ranger
(122/F/Silvery moon) 8/8/00 4:50 am
a paladin in my party was attacked by a giane eel and draggend into the water and left to sink. when afer a turn her drowned.
do you allthink after this experance he would have a fear of water or eels?
he says he wouldt but i think different.
plz thel me what ye all think


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Message 2668 of 6725 Reply

Re: Other changes (Alignments) shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 8/8/00 6:30 am
I disagree almost whole-heartedly.

Alignment is not personal belief or morals, it how the aplication of one's personal beliefs or morals affects others.

The ruler of a land may believe that the right thing to do for his realm is to enslave anyone who opposes him, tax the pants off every one who agrees with him, and executes anyone who won't work .. in order to build the biggest, most impenetrable castle ever constructed in order to perpetuate his rule, because only he knows the right way to govern, and no one else can be trusted with the responsibility.

While deep in his soul, he may believe that he is acting in the best interest of order and for the ultimate good of the land, very few impartial observers would define him as "lawful good" .. in fact, most would probably say he was "chaotic evil"

Alignment, much like beauty (despite the trite saying) is NOT "in the eye of the beholder" .. it is reflected in appearances, actions, and words, not the morals and beliefs.

As far as the "True Neutral" aspect of anyone .. alignment is not a pinpoint, or an absolute, but a large grey area .. even in the case of the "extremes" of LG, LE, CG, and CE.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2661 by BrRaven

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Message 2669 of 6725 Reply

Re: what doth ye all think? knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/8/00 11:17 am
He may or may not, for me it would depend on his Wisdom. In this case I would force a saving throw (perhaps a secret one by the DM is the best).

He may think he doesn't have one until he crosses another body of water or encounters another giant eel. Cause drowning can induce trauma, like, oh, death...

Despite their intelligence, many people may not even know of their phobias, much less understand them, or the reason behind them.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2667 by wren_the_elven_ranger

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Message 2670 of 6725 Reply

Re: Casting Time knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/8/00 11:23 am
okay, let's see something here:

wizard cutting the rope- 1 action which can be attempted secretly, so that's okay.

wizard dropping the torch- I think that should take an action to drop the torch and to shake off their hands to increase blood circulation

wizard casting spell- this would be the next action/attack, roll for initiative is my idea (if no one notices the wizard escaping, then give the wizard +4 to initiative for surprise)

ask your DM, if your RPG group can have him hold a broom, and see how many of you can tackle him, before he can finish a sentence, to see if it's realistic enough...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2664 by DarkLiege

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Message 2671 of 6725 Reply

anyone looking for mood music? knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/8/00 11:35 am
The perfect mood music for Ravenloft would be Glenn Danzig's "Black Aria", which has just recently been re-released and is composed of orchestral/instrumental pieces with haunting vocals barely piercing the veil set forth by many of the tracks. The tracks are beautiful to listen to, and aren't distracting enough to draw players away from the DM running the game, since it's mostly instruments.

Get it below, while it's still on sale at $15.19!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004NKGH/qid=3955197/thecourtofknight


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Message 2672 of 6725 Reply

Re: what doth ye all think? madteuton
(31/M/Keyport, NJ) 8/8/00 1:46 pm
True, true. Why just last night I found out I have a phobia for unfriendly cats while I'm wearing shorts. Visions of ribbony legs are unsettling.

Anyway, I don't think it's quite fair for the DM to dictate phobias to PCs. At worst, I believe the PC should get a saving throw, as knightmare6 suggests, and if he fails it, I think the PC should only get a penalty (to hit/dam.) when fighting one (or while one is about).

Perhaps you should let this PC roll to see if he is afflicted with this particular phobia at all (base 10% chance he is, adjusted for wisdom, etc.).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2669 by knightmare6

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Message 2673 of 6725 Reply

Re: what doth ye all think? knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/8/00 2:02 pm
or you may suggest that he has some sense of caution around small eel-like creatures or shadows in the water, which turns into a full-fledge phobia the moment he encounters another giant eel (if ever). You could ask him to roll a System Shock to represent him fighting off flashbacks from the last encounter, if he suceeds then he has successfully fought it off. Otherwise, he actually gets a phobia.

Unfortunately, sometimes a DM has to supercede a player's decision. Many players see their characters as themselves, but tougher. In doing so, they can't imagine having any weaknesses. They complain when they don't get something they want. Otherwise, no PCs in Ravenloft would ever have failed any horror, madness, or fear checks cause their characters aren't afraid of anything, even if they were to face Vecna with only a toothpick.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2669 by knightmare6

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Message 2674 of 6725 Reply

Re: what doth ye all think? Ima_Doppleganger
8/8/00 3:26 pm
Hey Mad
Did you know that you can’t baptize a cat? Or hold a cat in one hand and a running dustbuster in the other?
Ima

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2672 by madteuton

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Message 2675 of 6725 Reply

Re: what doth ye all think? Ima_Doppleganger
8/8/00 3:41 pm
All kidding aside, phobias can be a lot of fun for the players if played right. It can make you get into your characters head a lot more and bring out another level of role-playing. It can give you an excuse NOT to do something as well (if anyone has ever played a wu jen, you’ll know). I like just about anything that gives a player an opportunity to think about the inner workings of the character being played. All too often we just move the miniature, roll the die, and let the DM do the thinking. Get outside of the box. Ima

Ps. Mad, don’t forget about a cat’s 2:00am hair-ball-on-the-pillow attack.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2673 by knightmare6

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Message 2676 of 6725 Reply

Re: what doth ye all think? madteuton
(31/M/Keyport, NJ) 8/8/00 3:59 pm
Well then, perhaps it was my trying to strap poor Tabby into water skis on our dock that was causing her apprehension. Hmmm ...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2674 by Ima_Doppleganger

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Message 2677 of 6725 Reply

Re: Timing Sequences Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/8/00 4:50 pm
Raven

Your system looks good. I'll admit that the second attack in a given round always comes at the end of the round in my games, and I'll also admit that I agree it isn't the best way to handle multiple attacks.

One thing I didn't like in your method is that the initiative roll remains static throughout the entire battle. In my game, the players state what they are doing each round before rolling initiative. This heightens the excitement because many times, the order in which they get to act may mean the difference between success and failure, between life and death. If you knew what your initiative roll was for each round, then you could plan accordingly.

Whereas methinks your system is a good one, it is more complex than I want combat to be. I may use the weapon's adjustment to determine the time of the second attack, though. I like that better than saying, "allright, everyone else has attacked, make your second attack.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2662 by BrRaven

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Message 2678 of 6725 Reply

Re: Timing Sequences knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/8/00 5:49 pm
Umbratikus is right about rolling the initiative after the players have declared their actions, for then it is more fun, as things don't always work as planned. That's life, you don't always get what you wanted.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2677 by Umbratikus

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Message 2679 of 6725 Reply

Re: what doth ye all think? shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 8/9/00 6:03 am
All nature (especially a cat) abhors a vacuum.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2674 by Ima_Doppleganger

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Message 2680 of 6725 Reply

Re: what doth ye all think? Ima_Doppleganger
8/9/00 2:14 pm
But, there great with can opener sounds.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2679 by shinto_gaijin

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Message 2681 of 6725 Reply

Re: Skills & Powers blackbart69c
(33/M/Calgary, AB) 8/10/00 5:07 pm
As I recall, in the paladin's book they have a listing for demi-human 'paladin' types. Look there and see if there is anything that you want to add to your world.

Dwarves have champions (F/C), and the others all have similar combinations. I would be careful which multi-class "kit" you allow (for example, the dwarves have a F/C kit called the Vindicator. Imagine a priest with less than a 14 wisdom.).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2620 by Jiriki13

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Message 2682 of 6725 Reply

COREECTED submission page! wulfgar_dra_guun
(30/M/Victoria, BC) 8/10/00 8:06 pm
Finally!!! If you've tried putting a character through in the last couple days but received a "Forbiddon Page" warning... I apologize for the inconveinence! Apparently they changed servers and forgot to notify my! I know it must have happened in the last couple days... for characters were recieved three days ago!

Also updated was the MAIN page... new graphics and announcement! MOST important... RULES PAGE is now completed and posted. Please read even if you're already signed up! You are still responisble to follow the rules and you are responsible to read them.

The GAME is expected to start AUGUST 18th, 2000... but only if at least 10 players have signed up and sent in characters. Three have been recieved to date... probably because the page wasn't working... and are under review! I look forward to more characters and thank you for your support!

http://members.amethyst-alliance.com/arena/Brawling_Blades/Throne_Room.htm


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Message 2683 of 6725 Reply

Elvish manners pfclink
(26/M/Oklahoma) 8/10/00 9:15 pm
What whould be the proper and formal manner in which a Sylven elf greets another elf of unknown
race?
And where do elves go when they leave this world and pass to the next?
Are elves carnavores, herbivores, or omnibores?
What are their favorite drinks?


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Message 2684 of 6725 Reply

Help! AgentAnya
(15/F/Fargo, ND) 8/10/00 9:56 pm
What does THACo mean?


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Message 2685 of 6725 Reply

Help! AgentAnya
(16/F/Fargo, ND) 8/10/00 10:06 pm
For instance if you have a THAC0 of 18. Does that mean you have to roll a 18 or more to hit a 0 armor class?


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Message 2686 of 6725 Reply

Re: Help! Dragonwulf_1
8/10/00 10:06 pm
To Hit AC 0.

Dragonwulf

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2684 by AgentAnya

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Message 2687 of 6725 Reply

Re: Help! knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/11/00 1:42 am
Yep.

THACO of 15 would need a natural 15 to hit AC: 0, but this can be modified.

THACO of 15 to hit AC: -2, would require a natural roll of 17 (15 +2, reverse the - to + and add to THACO).

Of course this is for 2nd Edition. I don't know about 3rd since I don't have it yet.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2685 by AgentAnya

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Message 2688 of 6725 Reply

Re: Elvish manners knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/11/00 1:49 am
In my opinion, you should make it up yourself, but if you want to know.

The Complete Book of Elves covers a lot of your questions, as well as many of the supplements from Planescape, especially Planes of Conflict (currently out of print, but can be found in stores).

Complete Book of Elves
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1560763760/qid=965972823/thecourtofknight

This link will take you to it.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2683 by pfclink

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Message 2689 of 6725 Reply

Re: Elvish manners Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/11/00 8:24 am
<>

Sylvan elves don't care much for etiquette, and therefore there is not proper and formal manner. Most sylvan elves would probably remain hidden in the forest and let the unknown stranger pass ungreeted, elf or no elf.


<>

Who knows? IMC (In my campaign), there is a forest planet which orbits the sun exactly opposite my campaign world called Solstice. It shares the same orbital path, but the sun is always between the two worlds. Solstice is populated primarily by elves. When elves leave the campaign world, they probably go there (whether by dimensional travel or spelljamming, or perhaps some other method. I've never had to cross that bridge yet).

<>

IMC, they are omnivores, but they take only from nature what they will use, and waste nothing, similar to Native American tribes of yore.

<> Fine wine, honey mead, water, juices, strange fementations of forest plant nectars.

I don't have the Elve's Handbook. These are just a few of my impressions and campaign conventions.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2683 by pfclink

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Message 2690 of 6725 Reply

3e "Thac0" SCA_Bard
(23/F/Barony of Storvick) 8/11/00 9:46 am
One of the few things I *like* in 3e is how they're redoing THAC0. Armor Classes will start at 10 and go *up*. Characters will get an "attack bonus" based on class and level. Roll the d20, add the attack bonus. If it's equal to or greater than the AC, you hit.

It works out the same as 2e THAC0:

2e AC 0 becomes 3e AC 20 (base 10 + 10 levels of improvement)

1st level character's attack bonus: +0

So only on a roll of a 20 would the 3e 1st level character hit AC 20 - same as a 2e 1st level fighter needs a 20 to hit AC 0.

A 3e character with an attack bonus of +5 (I think a 6th level fighter?) facing an opponent in chain mail (2e AC 5 = 3e AC 15) needs to roll a 10 or better: 10 + 5 (her attack bonus) = 15 (opponent's AC).

A *lot* more intuitive than THAC0, I think, once you get used to the idea of high ACs being *good*.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2687 by knightmare6

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Message 2691 of 6725 Reply

Re: Elvish manners madteuton
(31/M/Keyport, NJ) 8/11/00 10:39 am
1) "yo."

2) Oklahoma

3) yes

4) grape kool-aid

I mean, sheesh!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2683 by pfclink

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Message 2692 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3e wylie_665
(27/M/Porphyria) 8/11/00 10:47 am
Yeah, but that's about the only thing I like about 3E, as Ive been using it as a house rule for nearly 2 yrs now! Man, I am so disappointed with 3E - looks like I will stick to 2E, after all

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2690 by SCA_Bard

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Message 2693 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3e mikethemanomanoman
8/11/00 1:31 pm
i have to agree with you the 3rd edition is going to suck because it took everyone so long to get 2nd edition and then they pop out 3rd i cant use this crap

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2692 by wylie_665

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Message 2694 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3e knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/11/00 2:37 pm
There is no need for a 3rd Edition! It's just another ploy to get money. You have to buy a brand new Player's Handbook, DMG, and Monster Manual just to start.

2nd Edition has been out for so long now, that tons of players and DMs have created house rules to help define and streamline the damn game's mechanics to run smoothly.

Me, I ended up concentrating on the proficiency aspect of the game, while incorporating the 'Character Points' idea, which many of my players liked.

As well as the 'Belief Points' rules presented in "The Planewalker's Handbook".

I ended up cataloging a good majority of the proficiencies, as well as fixing the combat system a bit, and I've had little complaints once players got used to the rules.

To check out the catalog of Proficiencies:
http://www.geocities.com/knightmare6/rpgarchives.html


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Message 2695 of 6725 Reply

? mikethemanomanoman
8/11/00 2:47 pm
wher can i find info on dwarven stone mages?


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Message 2696 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3e eldrwyrm
(29/M/Aurora, CO) 8/11/00 2:51 pm
The fact that you had to write that many house rules doesn't lend itself as evidence that the system needed to be revamped?
Not to mention that if a new player tries to join your group he is going to spend weeks learning house rules, so obviously this can't be done at conventions. This is an opportunity to correct a flawed system so that anybody can walk in and play from a baseline that is well thought out and versatile. I personally don't want to spend hours and hours writing and revising houserules, I would much rather spend my time writing adventures and outlining new areas of my campaign.

The Elder Wyrm

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2694 by knightmare6

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Message 2697 of 6725 Reply

Re: 3e knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/11/00 4:48 pm
Actually the house rules are minor variation which are easily integrated through the proficiency system. One thing I did was to allow 1-4 extra slots, I found out that this helped satisfy many players.

Many had always complained of not having enough slots, others were judgement calls on various situations.

I felt that the Player's Options were actually okay, once I caved in and bought the books. If Hasbro/WotC/TSR had released these much earlier in the life of 2nd Edition, we may not have even needed to deal with the issue of 3rd Edition.

And last night on the news (NYC) there was a short story on 3rd Edition.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2696 by eldrwyrm

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Message 2698 of 6725 Reply

Re: Dwarven Stone Mages knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/11/00 4:52 pm
Unfortunately, it's not in the 'Complete Book of Dwarves' so I can't help you. But I do remember seeing it somewhere on the net. Try searching the various D&D Webrings or the links section of this club.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2695 by mikethemanomanoman

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Message 2699 of 6725 Reply

Thank you for the info pfclink
(26/M/Oklahoma) 8/11/00 5:10 pm


This Is a Reply to: Msg 2688 by knightmare6

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Message 2700 of 6725 Reply

The Best messiah_of_metal
(M/FL) 8/11/00 5:32 pm
What was the best Campaine you ever DMed?


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Message 2701 of 6726 Reply

Re: Elvish manners pfclink
(26/M/Oklahoma) 8/11/00 5:59 pm
K
I
S
S

M
Y

A
R
S
E

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2691 by madteuton

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Message 2702 of 6726 Reply

Re: 3e shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 8/11/00 9:02 pm
Take Knightmare's statements:

"There is no need for a 3rd Edition! It's just another ploy to get money. You have to buy a brand new Player's Handbook, DMG, and Monster Manual just to start."

"2nd Edition has been out for so long now, that tons of players and DMs have created house rules to help define and streamline the damn game's mechanics to run smoothly."

Subtract one from the edition numbers, and you have the cry of many faithful AD&D players eleven years ago. There was no need for 2nd Edition, either, except for the fact that it took a library of rulebooks and a notebook of house rules to run most campaigns.

Like it or not, 3e's here .. why not give it a chance .. who knows, in ten years, you may be saying the same thing again about "why do we need a 4th edition" .. but more likely, you'll be in my position of grin and watch (and have enough disposable cash to buy the core books, just to see what all the fuss is about)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2694 by knightmare6

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Message 2703 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dwarven Stone Mages Dragonwulf_1
8/11/00 9:38 pm
This is for the one looking for Dwarven Stone Mages. Though I don't believe in Dwarven mages. (Dwarven magic resistance comes to mind.)

I do have something I downloaded that contains information on Dwarven Stone Mages called The Dwarnoi. I'm not sure if it's what your looking for, the information says that they are multiclass mage/clerics.

It would take 3-4 posts to post the relevant material, so unless enough people say they want me to post it I'm not. There is no place to upload files to this club or I would. So if you want the information post it here & make sure that I can access your email through your public profile. I will email it to you as a wordpad attachment.

Please don't email me. Due to a "moronic born-again coward" I have made my email address private til further notice. Once the idiot is taken care of this policy will change.

Dragonwulf
(who would enjoy eating "moronic born-again cowards" more if they weren't so d*** stringy :~P)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2698 by knightmare6

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Message 2704 of 6726 Reply

Sneaking in with 3e... madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 8/11/00 10:43 pm
OK. So I found the "secret" Yahoo! DMs' club...

I am recently returning to AD&D after a several year vacation in the realms of Earthdawn and Ars Magica. I quit playing AD&D after becoming disillusioned with 2e (yes, I was an old school player) and, to tell the truth, I think 3e corrects many of the problems with both editions while keeping true to all of the things that have made AD&D a great game.

I have the Players' Handbook and the DM guide and am anxiously awaiting the new monster manual and its CR (challenge rating) system. Which brings me to the question: where are some good places to find 3e info and monsters online? The system is so new, it seems like everything out there is 2e but I know its been in playtesting for a long time and there must be a bunch of stuff.

Anyway, glad I found you guys. I'm sure I'll see you around the club.

Alaverthe,
Scott


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Message 2705 of 6726 Reply

Re: Sneaking in with 3e... Dragonwulf_1
8/11/00 11:27 pm
<>

Umm where did you get the DM guide from? From what I've heard they aren't suppose to be released until September & the Monster Manual is not suppose to be released til October. Are you sure what you have is 3rd Edition?

Dragonwulf

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2704 by madpoet418

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Message 2706 of 6726 Reply

Re: Sneaking in with 3e... knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/12/00 12:38 am
I think you better double check that book of yours. They may have given out some DMGs at conventions, but to have bought it in stores?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2705 by Dragonwulf_1

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Message 2707 of 6726 Reply

Re: The Best cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 8/12/00 6:59 am
I am currently DMing a thieves guild campaign. It's a lot of fun. We normally only played good guys. Playing neutral and evil was a neat twist to the normal game we normally played.

The Cpl

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2700 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2708 of 6726 Reply

NEW WORLDS RV_BURNS
(31/M/blacksburg va) 8/12/00 11:47 am
I am in the process of creating a new world that will be based in part on feists work.I would appreciate any constructive feed back.


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Message 2709 of 6726 Reply

Hey Dragonwulf E-mail me that messiah_of_metal
(M/FL) 8/12/00 4:55 pm
I want that Dwarven Sonemage Information. My e-mail is messiah_of_metal@yahoo.com.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2703 by Dragonwulf_1

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Message 2710 of 6726 Reply

new guy redgravewriter
(23/M/las vegas) 8/12/00 8:12 pm
hello, long time dm, retired due to burnout, and freelance writer. Yahoo deleated my earlier message, so I'm going to be brief instead of verbose like I was earlier. First off, I'm writing adventures now and am looking for a dm with a party who would be willing to playtest some when I get them done (first few should be done within the week, 1/2 hour long little segiments). Two, I am missing my 2nd edition dm's guide and may ask for help now and again on mundane stuff. And three, I have some of the old net manuals. If they are no longer circulated (I'll name them later, in a hurry right now) then anyone who wants them is free to have them (these are from the great tsr hunt down period).


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Message 2711 of 6726 Reply

Re: new guy knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/12/00 8:38 pm
I'm happy to help out, just post your questions here or at my club:

All the Planes Come Calling
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/alltheplanescomecalling

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2710 by redgravewriter

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Message 2712 of 6726 Reply

Re: new guy redgravewriter
(23/M/las vegas) 8/13/00 12:20 am
I'm just in your club observing right now knightmare :P
just dosen't feel right asking dm questions in the company of players :P

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2711 by knightmare6

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Message 2713 of 6726 Reply

Re: new guy messiah_of_metal
(M/FL) 8/13/00 1:31 am
Hey man, I would LOVE to playtest your adventures. There are so many players in our town and only 2 Dms, so we get burnt out on ideas some times.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2710 by redgravewriter

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Message 2714 of 6726 Reply

Parries dirtydwarf
(31/M/Michigan) 8/13/00 8:52 am
I am looking for any house rules for parries, blocks, pins,or any other sword type maneuvers for an arena combat type campaign I am planning...
or anything else U can think of that may make arena combat a lil more detailed and strategic on the players part..thanks..
DD


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Message 2715 of 6726 Reply

Re: Parries maddman_75
(25/M/Illinois) 8/13/00 12:16 pm
Here's my house rule for blocks(I use the combat and tactics term to keep things clear:a BLOCK is using your weapon to stop an attack, while a PARRY is giving no thought to offense to gain an AC bonus, as described in the PHB)

The attacker calculates his Thac0, with all modifiers taken into account. For instance, a 5th level fighter(thac0 16) with a strength of 17 specialized in his long sword would have a calculated thac0 of 14. After the roll to hit, subtract ten from the attacker's thac0. The defender must roll an attack roll as if this number were the armor class. If he hits, the attack is blocked.

This system is quick and realistic - you are basically rolling to hit against the other person's skill with his sword. If your a detail freak, you could come up with modifiers for size difference and critical hits, etc.

I came up with this rule before C&T, when the fighter's handbook rule was to roll against an opponent's AC to block - about the stupidest idea I'd ever heard

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2714 by dirtydwarf

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Message 2716 of 6726 Reply

Re: Where I got 3eDMG. madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 8/13/00 12:51 pm
"Are you sure what you have is 3rd Edition?"

Absolutely.

"Umm where did you get the DM guide from?"

I have good contacts (a rogue Feat perhaps?). The copy I have is a factory reject with bad binding. Entire palettes of them are sent out for recycling. Free too. I got it about a week ago and, with any luck, will have the MM before the end of the month.

My Knowledge (internet) skill, however, is lacking and I have been unsuccessful in finding any good 3e info online? Can I take 10? Please...

Alaverthe,
Scott

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2705 by Dragonwulf_1

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Message 2717 of 6726 Reply

Re: Where I got 3eDMG. prolixlacuna
8/13/00 1:03 pm
<<>>

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2716 by madpoet418

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Message 2718 of 6726 Reply

Re: Where I got 3eDMG. (3e info) prolixlacuna
8/13/00 1:04 pm
The best 3e information site on the web is Eric Noah's site

http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/


<<

>>

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2716 by madpoet418

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Message 2719 of 6726 Reply

Re: eric's site, etc. madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 8/13/00 2:58 pm
Thanks prolix.

I didn't find the monsters I was looking for but that site was better than any I had found.

One of my favorite new details about the game is the Prestige Class concept. New, specialized classes are available to high level PCs for multiclassing. Each P-Class has a set of prerequisites that require time and intelligent character planning to meet. The P-Classes are: the (elven only) Arcane Archer, the Assassin, the Blackguard, the Dwarven Defender, the Loremaster, and the Shadowdancer.

I suppose a lot of you would rather use the space in this club for 2e. Sorry, couldn't contain myself...

Bad Scott.

Alavarthe.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2718 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2720 of 6726 Reply

Re: new guy redgravewriter
(23/M/las vegas) 8/13/00 3:35 pm
My e-mail address is in my profile whenever you feel like e-mailing me. (Mainly don't want to clutter up the club with posts about what you campagin is about and such, unless you don't mind :P)
One of them is ok for now, but for lower level pc's, the other I'm going to expand a bit and make a longer adventure for pc's prob level 4 to 6 or somewhere in that range. I'm attempting to make them so they can be dropped into any campagin.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2713 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2721 of 6726 Reply

first one almost done redgravewriter
(23/M/las vegas) 8/13/00 9:19 pm
My first adventure is almost done. It's short, maybe a hour at most, and for 1st to third level characters about 2 to 4 of them or so (or so I think right now). It's a drop in adventure, basically can be dropped in anywhere. I do have some questions about it that can only be answered through playtesting, but no idea how many of you actually game with 1st to third level characters.


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Message 2722 of 6726 Reply

Re: first one almost done Vheod_Runechild
8/14/00 12:46 am
I'd be interested in trying out your stories. I know a group that wouldn't mind playing a one-time adventure. Just let me know what specific information you nedd from the play-test.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2721 by redgravewriter

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Message 2723 of 6726 Reply

Re: first one almost done redgravewriter
(23/M/las vegas) 8/14/00 2:41 am
For this particular adventure, I mainly need to know if the hook is ok (it's a little unorthadox, which is why I am doing it :P). Reactions to the adventure itself, if alot of characters die killing the creature involved (I did a simulated combat and it should be ok, but nothing beats real play). I'm a little worried about the treasure, but I figure a 500gp gem, about 20 pp and a scroll (might change the scroll, not sure) is kewl for 1st to third level characters for a half hour to hour play. Wanted to put in a ring instead of the scroll, but couldn't think of a good one. I'm weiry of posting alot of info over a semi-public room, just the freelance writer in me. I should have it done tomorrow sometime, worst case tuesday.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2722 by Vheod_Runechild

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Message 2724 of 6726 Reply

Re: first one almost done cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 8/14/00 5:02 am
Good Luck. I've been a DM for 15 years and I've found that the low level adventures are the most fun to DM.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2723 by redgravewriter

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Message 2725 of 6726 Reply

Thor in the Forgotten Realms cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 8/14/00 5:08 am
I am considering adding the Norse God of Thunder, Thor to me Forgotten Realms Campaign. (He followed Tyr over, or something like that). Anyhow, I was trying to think of a particular area of influence for him. Tyr has justice, Tymora has luck, and so on. The realms gods seem to areas of influence that people "need". Worshipping Thunder seems kinda, "Non Realms-like". I was considering, Thor, Protector from Evil (or something like that). I would appreciate any input. I wouldn't even try putting Thor in, but I'm a fan I guess.


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Message 2726 of 6726 Reply

Re: new guy cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 8/14/00 5:09 am
My current party may be interested in some play-testing.

The Cpl

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2710 by redgravewriter

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Message 2727 of 6726 Reply

Re: Thor in the Forgotten Realms shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 8/14/00 5:40 am
Why not introduce the Norse Pantheon through the introduction of viking-style adventuring (or conquering, etc.) parties exploring the realms, some settling down .. just because a pantheon is not represented in one culture doesn't mean they don't exist .. (take the varied religions of this world, for example .. who's to say that they aren't all right?)

Either that, or modify him appropriately for the campaign.

Having never played in the realms, or even read more than a couple of the novels, I don't know how hard this will be, but I can't imagine that whatever limits there are can't be broken by a bit of creativity and imagination.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2725 by cplchaotic

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Message 2728 of 6726 Reply

Re: Thor in the Forgotten Realms madteuton
(31/M/Keyport, NJ) 8/14/00 9:16 am
Do what you wish, that's the spirit of D&D, my boy. To Hell with the "laws" of the Realms.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2725 by cplchaotic

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Message 2729 of 6726 Reply

Re: Thor in the Forgotten Realms SCA_Bard
(23/F/Barony of Storvick) 8/14/00 9:46 am
Thor was also a very popular warrior's god, wasn't he? Exemplifying strength, courage, battle-rage, etc etc. I know the Realms has a god of war, but does it have a god of warriors? (Esp. good warriors fighting to keep the tides of evil at bay, in the face of impossible odds, whatever - trying to tie in the whole 'against the giants at Ragnarok' thing).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2728 by madteuton

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Message 2730 of 6726 Reply

Re: 3e Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/14/00 1:30 pm
I have to agree with your points, gaijin, but I am on the side of the 2nd editioners. Many gamers have much more invested in 2nd edition material than was ever available for the first edition. Plus there is the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. I think it would be different if the 3rd was more compatible with 2nd. There seems to be fundamental game changes that are not easily compatible with 2nd.

Many of the mechanics changes seem to be good ones, like the new THAC0 system. But there are many philosophical changes which I think most of us really disagree with most. Gnome paladins? Dwarven wizards? No demi-human level limits? These are things that most of us are protesting.

I think I'll just stick with my ever popular and extremely satisfying 2nd edition game. Like I said before, This just shortens the amount of "stuff" out there to tempt my budget.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2702 by shinto_gaijin

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Message 2731 of 6726 Reply

Re: eric's site, etc. Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/14/00 1:38 pm
<>

Although I am still a proponent of the 2nd ed game, I believe this forum is for those of any edition (1st, 2nd, or 3rd). Post to your heart's content.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2719 by madpoet418

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Message 2732 of 6726 Reply

Re: Thor in the Forgotten Realms Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/14/00 1:42 pm
I believe Thor was also the god of fairness, as well as thunder.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2725 by cplchaotic

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Message 2733 of 6726 Reply

Adventure Ideas Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/14/00 2:00 pm
Anyone out there have some good ideas for some low to mid level city-based adventures they would like to share. My guys are currently hunting down an elusive NPC adversary in a mid sized city and I am looking for a sub plot or "side trek" or two.


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Message 2734 of 6726 Reply

Dragon #258 Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/14/00 2:57 pm
Anybody here have a Dragon Magazine #258?


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Message 2735 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas madteuton
(31/M/Keyport, NJ) 8/14/00 3:11 pm
Well, there's always the "Thing In the Sewers" classic. The marauding lycanthrope (one of the townspeople -- but which?). The local mage needs rare spell components .... etc., etc., etc.

Or, the party unwittingly steps on the local thieves' guild's toes (thwarts a robbery or something) ... always fun.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2733 by Umbratikus

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Message 2736 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dragon #258 mattbcieri
(28/M/Upper Darby PA) 8/14/00 3:32 pm
I do, not for sale. What information were you interested in?

Matt

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2734 by Umbratikus

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Message 2737 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dragon #258 Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/14/00 4:15 pm
Would you be able to scan and email or photocopy and mail the info on the planar sects (Vital League and Machine Coalition, I believe)? I would be forever grateful.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2736 by mattbcieri

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Message 2738 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas redgravewriter
(23/M/las vegas) 8/14/00 4:55 pm
I'll write a sidetrack adventure (or 3) for low to mid level characters if you tell me how everyone likes it and such.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2733 by Umbratikus

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Message 2739 of 6726 Reply

Re: Thor in the Forgotten Realms knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/14/00 6:34 pm
This is just a suggestion ( mainly works if it is not for a PC in the beginning).

A wandering warrior/priest who preaches and fights in the name of Thor. The Pcs encounter him a few times, fight alongside, and etc. They learn about Thor through him. He travels with PCs for a while and begins to convert some followers. Who's to say that they couldn't use another god with a similar portfolio.

Remember Fogotten Realms has more than one pantheon of gods from our homeworld of Earth or are you fogetting (no pun intended) the Chinese, Japanese, and Arabic pantheons of Kara-Tur and Al-Quadim, as well as the Egyptians. They each have their own gods of war as well.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2725 by cplchaotic

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Message 2740 of 6726 Reply

Re: first one almost done glenromero
(30/M/Honolulu, HI) 8/14/00 9:47 pm
I'd offer to help you out, BUT I live in Hawaii.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2721 by redgravewriter

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Message 2741 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas glenromero
(30/M/Honolulu, HI) 8/14/00 10:01 pm
If you made the players make a back round for their chacters you could use thjat information againist them. My form DM (before I moved) had us passing by one of the characters home town. He wanted to stop by and say "HI" to his family. When we arrived it had been over run by orces. We join what was left of the towns forces and my character used his influence with the locale elevn nation to assist with the retaking of the town.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2733 by Umbratikus

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Message 2742 of 6726 Reply

Re: first one almost done redgravewriter
(23/M/las vegas) 8/14/00 11:09 pm
dosen't matter, I'm not planning on dm'ing (because of two reasons, 1, I have no players, haven't for a long time, and 2, it's not a good idea to playtest your own adventures. I've tried before and it dosen't work. I gloss over too much that should be there but isn't)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2740 by glenromero

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Message 2743 of 6726 Reply

magazines redgravewriter
(23/M/las vegas) 8/14/00 11:12 pm
Ok, I'm behind the times. The only magazines I know of are dragon, dungeon, and polyhedron. I know there's got to be more out there. There always has been (I have one somewhere that was published back in first edition times, one of the pulp rpg mags)


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Message 2744 of 6726 Reply

Re: 3e wylie_665
(27/M/Porphyria) 8/15/00 3:08 am
I started off with only a few pages of house rules as an attempt to bring in some of the features I enjoyed in Basic/Expert and admired in other game systems... over the years it grew to over 30 pages! Guess I enjoy fiddling with the rules too much. In any event, I'm seeing this as an opportunity to get out and try other systems for a while. When I come back to D&D, it'll be 2nd Edition with (hopefully) little in the way of house rules - about the only good thing I can say about 3E is that it has given me some ideas for streamlining things, so I should end up with 5 pages of house rules, max.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2697 by knightmare6

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Message 2745 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/15/00 7:57 am
Good ideas all, except that I've used all of those ideas already. When you've been a DM for over 20 years, you sometimes start to run out of original ideas. The adversary the PCs are hunting is actually involved (in a rather complex way) with the local thieves' guild, so those toes are getting stepped on already.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2735 by madteuton

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Message 2746 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/15/00 8:04 am
And you couldn't be more right about backgrounds. I spend time with each of my PC's developing their character backgrounds. Their backrounds are usually pretty involved (a page or more, typewritten) which explains where they came from, their social class, and how they became what they are. These backgrounds usually spawn several NPC's that can be important in the future, as well as situations that can lead to future adventures. In fact, the NPC my PC's are chasing is one of my PC's old mentor gone bad. This came directly out of the PC's background. Like the PCs, this NPC has gained levels in the mean time, so he is still a respectable adversary.

Good character backgrounds can drive entire campaigns.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2741 by glenromero

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Message 2747 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/15/00 8:16 am
Thanks redgrave, but you would be better off just sending me an outline or idea list or something. In campaign play, I seldom use pre-existing adventures without modifying them heavily to fit seamlessly into my storyline, involving past events/situations/NPCs/etc. where possible. I would hate for you to go through all the trouble of writing a polished "side trek" adventure when I might not use it as written. I would certainly let you know how it went, though.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2738 by redgravewriter

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Message 2748 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas glenromero
(30/M/Honolulu, HI) 8/15/00 2:19 pm
The last character I played was an invoker mage. I spend the better part of a week building his back round. He was the from the black sheep part a a royal family. He learned how th ride a horse not because it was noble but because he could get away from the local bully faster. He learned his WP from the bully as well, after being beetin by a staff so many time you start to learn how to use it. He became an invoker through teaching from his mentor/master (boy if it don't blow stuff up what go is it). I miss playing and it's only been two months.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2746 by Umbratikus

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Message 2749 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dwarven Stone Mages richard_pinilla
(28/M/Miami, Fl) 8/15/00 7:16 pm
I'd like a copy of that my e-mail is in my profile

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2703 by Dragonwulf_1

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Message 2750 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dwarven Stone Mages HRMITT
(30/M/Silverdale, Wa) 8/15/00 7:26 pm
I would also like the Dwarven download. email in profile.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2703 by Dragonwulf_1

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Message 2751 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas golgin_durinhammer
(31/M/lost at present) 8/15/00 8:25 pm
An Idea which I used recently was to have the PC's go to a new town to do some covert work for the local Lord.
Someone was selling magic items (potions mostly and a few scrolls) to the campaign Evil Empire. The EO had set up a complex system for moving the illegal goods which official attempts to break had failed.
Thinking some of his staff were either involved or tipping off the smugglers, the local Lord requested assistance from his cousin to get some out of towners to come and investagate for him. This served two purposes. It got the PC's into a new area of operations and took the players out of their comfort zone and working for a noble they had no knowledge of but were recomended to. Unfortunatly only two of the players thought it was a good idea and the others got drunk in the pub and started blabbing about being on a special assignment and it nearly fell to pieces. I had a whole list of dodgy NPC's with questionable morals who were involved in other activities to try to throw the PC's off the trail. If your players are experianced it will probably work better for you than it did for me. I'll send you some of the background if you are interested.

golgin_durinhammer@yahoo.com.au

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2733 by Umbratikus

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Message 2752 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 8/15/00 10:47 pm
"My guys are currently hunting down an elusive NPC adversary in a mid sized city and I am looking for a sub plot or "side trek" or two."

My 3e campaign is starting in a mid sized city and I've been doing a lot of thinking along those lines. Several simple dungeons in the city (library basement, an old church, a haunted well) are all connected by an underground river. They make great hiding spots for theives and the like and allow some good wererat/undead/NPC encounters. PCs hear of the dungeons from a rumor table and can either explore them individually as side adventures or continue down the river. A system of catecombs can be used instead.

This opens up several side plot options, too many to list here but I'll share the ones I'm using.

The river has its own dungeon which (among others) connects to the underdark. Some drow have set up an assassin's guild and a team of deep gnomes is running an interesting scam. They have an extensive adventurers' shop upriver from the drow camp. The gnomes sell equipment, potions, healing, and boat rides to the camp.

The river also leads to a secret escape tunnel. This has little use right now but I plan on having the Lord of the city (who is LN) make a pact with an evil ambassador in order to gain the upper hand in a tribal war that is going on in the area. When that happens, the PCs (who do not trust the ambassador) will be criminals forced to flee. Later, when they must return to the city, the secret tunnel and dungeon system will be their way back in.

Alavarthe',
-Scott

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2733 by Umbratikus

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Message 2753 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dwarven stone mage. infernoblade
(M/9 hells) 8/16/00 1:42 am
Sounds interesting.But dwarves are higly resistant to arcane.But I wopuld like to see the article on this.But if you take at the the deep gnome-sverniblin.They are true stone mages.One with the earth(able to summon earth elementals and sop forth.)You could just take the concept of the deep gnome and apply it to the dwarves(clerical or otherwise).My e-mail is on my profile.Appreciate.Never pass up an opportunity to check out something new.

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Message 2754 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/16/00 8:15 am
Yeah, golgin. Sounds good. My email is in my profile.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2751 by golgin_durinhammer

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Message 2755 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/16/00 8:17 am
Great ideas, poet. Thanks.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2752 by madpoet418

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Message 2756 of 6726 Reply

new club for 3E DMs and Players prolixlacuna
8/16/00 12:50 pm
I set up a new club intended to get everyone up to speed on the new 3E rules. Ask questions, post what you like/don't like, post problems/fixes to the new rules.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild

I'll also put some links to 3E adventures when I write them. If you have a 3E adventure that you'd like to share, Email me, and I'll set up a link.

Prolix.


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Message 2757 of 6726 Reply

House Rules discussion eldrwyrm
(29/M/Aurora, CO) 8/17/00 11:53 am
There is a new Club set up for Discussion of House Rules in 3e.http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/dnd3ehouseruleshandbook

Come on over and post some thoughts

The Elder Wyrm


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Message 2758 of 6726 Reply

Need DM help theselis
(M/Ringwood, IL) 8/17/00 2:56 pm
I need serious help with my campaign. I have only been DMing for two years, was never a player of my own, and never had an experienced DM to teach me the tricks of the trade. My adventure building knowledge is entirly based on the few printed adventures I own. I was hoping someone out there might give me tips on building an interesting and chalanging adventure. Also, advice on how to prevent my players from becoming "munchkins" would be greatly appreciated

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Message 2759 of 6726 Reply

Re: Need DM help Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/17/00 3:51 pm
Well first of all, you might want to tell us something useful about the characters within your campaign and what has happened to them so far in their adventuring careers. I am assuming that this is an on-going campaign and not one that you are just starting. Either way, you might want to begin the campaign with something that relates somehow to the chracters' backgrounds. I always have the players create a background of their character's lives before adventuring and how and why they became adventurers. It's just a start, but I have gotten plenty of ideas for beginning campaigns off of the backgrounds of characters. I will admit that pretty much all of the players in my group are pretty good about coming up with interesting backgrounds so it kind of easy for me. If you have trouble coming up with something, you can always look on WoC website and download some of the Dungeon adventures they have there. Some of them are pretty good. The best thing for coming up with this kind of stuff is looking back at things that have happened to the PCs in previous adventures or in their backgrounds.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2758 by theselis

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Message 2760 of 6726 Reply

Re: Need DM help tarsheeva
(32/F) 8/17/00 4:35 pm
Be fair to the players all the time, players know the rules and familiarize with them as well as the GM. Also get to know the character, what the character like and dislikes, know the personality the player is trying to give the character. Try to not concentrate only in one player, the others deserve attention too. Remember rpg is not about who wins or loses, is about having a great time and have fun.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2759 by Jiriki13

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Message 2761 of 6726 Reply

I feel like a total retard askin this... messiah_of_metal
(M/FL) 8/17/00 6:12 pm
Ok. I have been a DM for a LONG time... and I am damn embarassed asking this question. It has boggled my mind.. me and the other DM in town have no damn clue on WHAT A MUNCHKIN IS! Yall talk about them all the time. Is it an acual class... or a slang name for shitty PC's... Im sure other DM's in this guild dont know either. I will be the one who looks like an ass askin though.


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Message 2762 of 6726 Reply

Re: Need DM help prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 8/17/00 6:12 pm
First off, why do you care if your players become "munchkins" or not. As a DM, I don't really care how the PC and the players act. As long as they keep me amused. If you have a group of "munchkins", send them around the world looking for that "Ring of Godhood". Hmmm, might as well send them around the world a couple of times. Dangling the ultimate artifact in front of them and then snatching it away.

If your players are really into the "roll playing" aspect of D&D, give them challenges there. Use lots of PC/NPC interaction. Perhaps, send them on an undercover mission into a hostile land. Put them in difficult situations and see how they react. Will they perform an evil act just so their cover won't be blown? Do the ends justify the means? Will they kill an innocent NPC? Will then torture an evil NPC because they were told to and are being watched?

If you have a combination of players, give each person something fun to do. Each player has a different idea of what is fun. You need to learn enough about your players so you can customize something for each of them.

Now as to "interesting and challenging". They are entirely different. You need to decide what is interesting to you and know what is interesting to your players. I personally find intrigue and problem solving interesting. So there will always be that sort of thing going on. NPCs will have their own master plans and try to execute them. If PCs try, they might figure them out. If not, I don't care. The PCs can blindly hack thru everything they come to without knowing whats really going on. It doesn't matter to me. I'm amused if they are oblivious and get shuffled around like pawns.

As to challenging, make encounters and puzzles a fair difficulty for the players. But, sometimes, I just cheat. If an encounter is too hard or too easy, I secretly adjust it. Some encounters I want to be close and epic battles. I won't let lucky die rolls get in my way. But its very important that the players NEVER, EVER know that you do that. Also, if the players ever do something stupid, I let them suffer the consequences. Even if it means one or more of them get killed.

Hope that helps.

Prolix

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2758 by theselis

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Message 2763 of 6726 Reply

Re: I feel like a total retard askin thi prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 8/17/00 6:29 pm
Definition of munchkin:

Everyone has their own definition. Some people use it for min-maxers, but that is not really correct.

I think it means a player who wants to be the best at everything. A player who doesn't want to maximize advantages and minimize disadvantages. It is a player who wants to be the best at everything. A high-level wizard who wants to be able to beat equal level fighters in melee combat. Typically a "munchkin" will feel its reasonably for him to do that and whine when he doesn't get his way.

Most often, however, the term "munchkin" is used by "role players" to denigrate every other playing style but their own. "Role players" are very vocal on the internet about how their way to play is the best or the correct way to play. "Role playing" is the adult way to play and "munchkinism" is for 12 year olds who find holy avengers when they are level 1.

Feel free to start flaming away everyone.

D&D is a game. People need to have fun playing it. Different people have fun in different ways. I personally don't have a problem with the way anyone plays. I do have a problem with people who insist other people play their way. Everyone should be able to adjust to everyone else's style of play. If someone can't, then he is the one with the problem.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2761 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2764 of 6726 Reply

Re: Need DM help RE Munchkins orgruff
(32/M/Adelaide, Australia) 8/17/00 7:42 pm
If you are keen to avoid players from becoming 'Munchkins' if that is what you want, there are several ways to go about it. For a relatively inexperianced DM I suggest restricting their choice of PC race, Only allow Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Halflings period. Anybody who wants to be a Half Ogre, Drow, Minataur, lizardman, freakish halfgiant with dragon and gorgon blood can forget it. (and I expect some dedicated Drow players to flame me, but I said for a relatively inexperianced DM) Also be very strict when they roll their ability scores, 4d6 use the hightest three, don't allow them to re-roll ones watch them do it. Then give them challenges to match, dont put them in situations where they might take more damage in one blow, trap, or fireball spell than the WEAKEST character can take. If they are first level make all the pits 10' deep because any pit trap with poisoned spikes that does 4d6 damage or more is going to instantly kill that first level Halfling thief with 4 hit points who failed his meagre find traps score by one point. (and make a mess in the process).

You also have to make your world a place that is not filled with rival gangs of Drow assasins and armies of Minataur wizard / priests, where the Humans are outnumbered 10 to 1 Otherwise your players will say "Well why couldnt I be a Mutant Dragon / Demon cross everyone else arround here is"

If you want to start a new 3rd Ed campaign then now is the time to start being heavy handed.

I dont think I ever met a munchkin yet who played a human thief with 16 Dexterirty and that was his highest score.

Then let the Players gradually become more powerful, by the time they are all second level the magic items they might have are: a couple of potions, healing and invisability, a scroll with read magic and web and a +1 sword.
Build it up slowly make most enemy NPC's seem dangerous in some small way than at say fourth level give them an encounter to match their ability followed by one similar to what they had at first level (say three skeletons) and tell them how much more powerful they are now than they were way back when.

They may not like it if you are stingy but be fair and don't let all the NPC's flaunt power and magic when they can't. That will make them bitter.

Orgruff (never played a Drow in 17 years)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2758 by theselis

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Message 2765 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 8/17/00 11:19 pm
I had had DM that would send different distractions our way. Once hae had us take a trip to a small town in the mountains. We took a sealed a small sealed box from a rich merchant to another rich merchant. He put us through hell and high water to get the box to the town. When we got there we found out that the box contained a slip of paper with the next move of an ongoing chess game between the two rich guys.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2733 by Umbratikus

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Message 2766 of 6726 Reply

Re: I feel like a total retard askin thi cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 8/18/00 1:33 am
Don't feel bad, I have no clue what a munchkin is either, except that they were the midgets in "The Wizard of Oz". Maybe they are referring to halflings?

The Cpl

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2761 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2767 of 6726 Reply

Re: Need DM help cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 8/18/00 1:39 am
I think what my players like about my campaigns is that I do two things.
1. I make interesting NPCs. If you have trouble doing this, base them on real people you may know.
2. I cater to their characters. If the fighter wants to attack the goblin tribe, LET HIM! Players love to feel that they have choices.

The Cpl

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2758 by theselis

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Message 2768 of 6726 Reply

Re: I feel like a total retard askin thi eldrwyrm
(29/M/Aurora, CO) 8/18/00 11:07 am
"Munchkin" is a derogatory term used to refer to those gamers whose main reason for playing is to see just how abusive they can make their characters. They gain little thrill from a game if there are not tons of magic or high tech, piles of gold, and powerful monsters that they can smack down with impunity. Munchkins in D&D tend to play elven fighter/mages because they a) get all those cool elven abilities, b)can whoop-ass as a fighter wearing +5 elven chain and wielding Stormbringer, and c)get access to all powerful spells such as fireball, lightning bolt, Otto's Irrisistable dance (which they cast on dragons), and wish.
In Rifts, they tend to go for the all powerful "Glitterboy".

The Elder Wyrm

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2766 by cplchaotic

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Message 2769 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dragon #258 mattbcieri
(28/M/Upper Darby PA) 8/19/00 9:08 pm
Sorry for taking soo long to get back to you, I only get to read e-mail about once a week with all my school work.

The full artical in question is 13 pages. It would seem more practical to photo-copy and snail-mail it to you. one concern I have is that all the tables, and the first page have a greyish-tan shading/background, and may not copy well. But I will attempt to do my best.

Did you want the full Mage vs machine artical, or just the pages dealing with the colitions? Also, what address did you want this info mailed to?

Matt

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2737 by Umbratikus

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Message 2770 of 6726 Reply

Re: Adventure Ideas Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/21/00 9:48 am
Clever.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2765 by cplchaotic

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Message 2771 of 6726 Reply

Re: Need DM help Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/21/00 1:43 pm
As I have suggested to someone else before, the column "Dungeon Mastery" in Dragon magazine is good for newbie DM's. The entire collection of articles is available at the Wizards of the Coast website under the Dragon Magazine section.

Also, Dungeon Magazine has some good adventures (it also has some bad ones, too, so read them carefully). One thing you can do is find a pre-published adventure (either in Dungeon, or an official AD&D module) that you really like, and then build a campaign around it.

What I mean is you can take an adventure and start it out the characters out there. After the adventure is over ask yourself, what would logically happen next. Are there any monsters or NPC's that are still around afterwards? What would they do now? Would they take revenge on the PCs? Would they try and rebuild what the PCs have destroyed?

You could also get an adventure that is a few levels higher than your PCs' current level and then ask yourself "What would logically happen before?" Does the adventure base itself in a town or village? Station the PC's there. Let them get to know the NPCs involved. Read the adventure background and see if you can incorporate that into early adventures, so that when the adventure finally comes, they already know the background and what has come before, because they have lived it!

Back in the early 80's, one of my most successful campaigns started with the Saltmarsh series from TSR. The three modules took the PC's from 1st level to 2nd to 4th, and they continued on adventures stemming from that until they were well into 7th and 8th level.

More recently, a little adventure in an old issue of Dungeon Magazine (Falcon's Peak, issue 3) turned into six or seven adventures including a large scale battle using BattleSystem miniatures rules (and the lead baddie still lives and will haunt the PC's some more bwahahaha).

Anyway. Hope this gave you some good ideas. Good luck.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2758 by theselis

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Message 2772 of 6726 Reply

Re: I feel like a total retard askin thi doc_souark
(40/M/Arkansas) 8/21/00 10:26 pm
Someone asked the same thing on Eric's board do you think they're the same guy ?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2768 by eldrwyrm

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Message 2773 of 6726 Reply

The BEST Third Edition D&D Club on Yahoo prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 8/22/00 10:28 am
Come join the BEST Yahoo club for discussing 3E topics. Discuss the rules or just ask questions. This club will help everyone get ready to play or DM a new 3E game.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild

Prolix


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Message 2774 of 6726 Reply

Free Downloads Coming Dragonwulf_1
8/23/00 2:58 pm
Jim Butler has released a list of Forgotten Realms products that WotC will have for free for download at their site, sometime in the next few months. From what I understand the rest of the FR product downloads will be for sale. How much I don't know.

He also says "ALL of the old products will eventually be made available."

Here is a list of the free downloads:

Calimport
Castle Spulzeer
Cormanthyr
Cult of the Dragon
Elminster's Ecologies Appendix, Vol. 1
Elminster's Ecologies Appendix, Vol. 2
For Duty & Deity
Four from Cormyr
FR12: The Horde Campaign Setting
FR15: Gold & Glory
How the Mighty are Fallen
Lands of Intrigue
Marco Volo I: Departure
Marco Volo II: Journey
Marco Volo III: Arrival
Netheril: Empire of Magic
The City of Ravens Bluff
The Fall of Myth Drannor
The North (already available)
The Ruins of Myth Drannor (to tie into the release of Pool of Radiance; available in December)
The Vilhon Reach
Undermountain: Maddgoth's Castle
Undermountain: The Lost Level
Villain's Lorebook
Volo's Guide to All Things Magical
Volo's Guide to Cormyr
Volo's Guide to the Dalelands
Undermountain: Stardock
Volo's Guide to the North


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Message 2775 of 6726 Reply

Re: Free Downloads Coming darkharbenger
(32/M/Upstate New York) 8/23/00 8:08 pm
Hey whats the adderess?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2774 by Dragonwulf_1

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Message 2776 of 6726 Reply

Re: Free Downloads Coming HRMITT
(30/M/Silverdale, Wa) 8/23/00 8:12 pm
It's at the WOTC Website.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2775 by darkharbenger

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Message 2777 of 6726 Reply

Gaming in ILLINOIS BeStillMyBeatingHeart
(30/M/Lockport) 8/23/00 8:26 pm
If your from Illinois or Southern Wisconsin and want to meet local gamers, check us out.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/adventurersrealmillinois

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Message 2778 of 6726 Reply

Re: Free Downloads Coming Dragonwulf_1
8/23/00 8:54 pm
www.wizards.com

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2775 by darkharbenger

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Message 2779 of 6726 Reply

Re: Free Downloads Coming Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/24/00 10:09 am
I am actually very impressed with the material that TSR/WoTC has been making available for download over the last few years.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2774 by Dragonwulf_1

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Message 2780 of 6726 Reply

which would you choose? redgravewriter
(23/M/las vegas) 8/24/00 1:46 pm
(thanks for the free downloads info :)

Ok, actually two questions. which type of Campign do you like to play in (I'm looking for plot elements here, not rules elements (though both are ok (even though listening to the e3 discussion, I know which of you like which system)))
the other, what type of campign do your players like to play in, on average.
my own little personal research.


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Message 2781 of 6726 Reply

which type of campign? redgravewriter
(23/M/las vegas) 8/24/00 1:48 pm
(thanks for the free downloads info :)

Ok, actually two questions. which type of Campign do you like to play in (I'm looking for plot elements here, not rules elements (though both are ok (even though listening to the e3 discussion, I know which of you like which system)))

I hate yahoo, it's always keeping me from posting.
the other, what type of campign do your players like to play in, on average.
my own little personal research.


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Message 2782 of 6726 Reply

Re: which would you choose? SCA_Bard
(23/F/Barony of Storvick) 8/24/00 5:27 pm
I prefer a plot-based game: something where I feel connected to the game world, where my actions have consequences. I like a tricky GM who's got intelligent villans whose plots and schemes I need to figure out. I like a little character drama, with loose plot threads and emotions from a character background or from previous games to come back into play.

I was in a game like this when the GM changed work shifts. A new GM has turned it into a 'kill the monster, take the treasure' Monty Haul megafest. I no longer play.

My players (the guys of the local gaming store) seem to enjoy a variety of game types, although for different reasons. They keep coming back to my game, even though there's combat only maybe every second or third game and I'm stingy with magic items. They also play in the more traditional hackfest. I think they serve different purposes: in one you get to think and act a bit more, and the other is great for blowing off steam, if that's your style. The other game tends to be rowdier, with more folks hootin' and hollerin' as they nuke the hell out of some 2 HD monster for giggles. I get the priest and the kobold having a theological debate (also enormously funny). Go figure - same fellows, different nights.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2780 by redgravewriter

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Message 2783 of 6726 Reply

Re: Free Downloads Coming orgruff
(32/M/Adelaide, Australia) 8/24/00 6:09 pm
I too am happy about their downloads, especially with a lot of out of print early modules and stuff. Some of it was then ground breaking stuff but is now cliche' its good to get a feel of how far the game has progressed since 'The palace of the silver princess' for example.

It does make it hard though to run your own campaign through a module when you know the players have internet access, they are likely to be checking out the site and may have read / downloaded it. Even if you change a lot including names of NPC and places, they may eventually catch on that its all very familiar. I am running "The Secret of Bone Hill" by Gygax at the moment (for the first time) but changed a lot of the names, and monsters and added a new expanded dungeon that included lots of the original. I think its working well and to the best of my knowledge the players have not figured it out yet. I'm pretty sure that at least one has played it before. But I won't ask him until after its all finished.

Orgruff

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2779 by Umbratikus

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Message 2784 of 6726 Reply

Re: which would you choose? orgruff
(32/M/Adelaide, Australia) 8/24/00 6:14 pm
RE: Go figure - same fellows, different nights.

I think it shows that your players are complex people and that they do not always want to play the same game. Isnt that why we play D&D instead of tic-tac-toe?

Orgruff

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2782 by SCA_Bard

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Message 2785 of 6726 Reply

Re: which would you choose? glenromero
(30/M/Honolulu, HI) 8/24/00 6:43 pm
That the style of playing I like. The last campaign I was in Badger had a Kobold ninja as a follower. Also ,forgive me for what I'm about to post, had a pokemon of sorts. The kobold had a bad of holding, in this bag was a rhino with a metal horn. When ever we needed a little extra fire power Badger would say Stompy I choose you and the kobold would release the rhino.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2782 by SCA_Bard

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Message 2786 of 6726 Reply

Re: what doth ye all think? dbrand001
8/24/00 7:43 pm
Why dont you roll the percent dice and let him pick high or low. Give him a 50/50 chance. Whatever the dice lands on is the answer. I would roll for each phobia as well.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2667 by wren_the_elven_ranger

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Message 2787 of 6726 Reply

Re: which would you choose? mattbcieri
(28/M/Upper Darby PA) 8/24/00 11:33 pm
depends on the mood.

I like to play in campaigns with lots of thinking and puzzle solving, role-play and NPC interaction. But sometimes, I just wanna play a knock-en-down, drag-out slug-fest of a fight.

I like running Ravenloft for my players, but they so far have been too much of the hack-and slash, and not enough of the detectice or roleplayers.

Matt

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2780 by redgravewriter

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Message 2788 of 6726 Reply

Re: which would you choose? shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 8/25/00 1:41 am
I think what I like best to play is an exploratory (aka: Star Trek) campaign .. wandering off into unknown lands, solving problems, saving princesses, becoming a legend among the locals, and then moving on deeper into the unknown.

My next favorite would be a quest-based campaign, where a prophecy or other legendary lore describes an artifact (or artifacts) of great reknown, and the party hunts for it (or them).

My favorite to DM is a greater conflict .. a war between major powers, with the players at low level affected by the conflict, but not directly participating .. and then (as they become more powerful, know more about what the conflict is really about, and know which side they really want to help) taking a significant part in it, maybe eventually confronting the big baddie who's really in charge (but not likely, unless it's something that I can use to continue the plot or I want to end the campaign)

(I've never actually played in a campaign like this, but I've DM'ed a couple.)

However, when I just want to kill time, get the gang in the mood, or just blow off steam, we play a home-grown Pro Wrestling RPG or set up a miniatures skirmish using samurai-style miniatures (from the AEG game "Legend of the Five Rings") and simplified rules or WH40K.

s/g

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2787 by mattbcieri

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Message 2789 of 6726 Reply

Re: which would you choose? shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 8/25/00 1:46 am
My favorite campaign worlds are more character (PC & NPC) geared (as opposed to fantastic creatures) with relatively few magic items and spell casters (but the ones that you do find are typically darn powerful) and based in a somewhat historical context (not terribly details-oriented, but something to fall back on when details are necessary for the background or scenery)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2788 by shinto_gaijin

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Message 2790 of 6726 Reply

Re: which would you choose? Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/25/00 8:32 am
The game I would like to play, the game I run, and the game my players like are luckily one in the same. My play style sounds very similar to SCA Bard's.

In my games, a flawless storyline is key. Everything fits together seamlessly, and one adventure logically follows the next. When designing adventures, I look at what has come before, look at the PC's abilities and backgrounds, and go from there. The "flavor" of the campaign could change. Right now it is in mystery/intigue mode, but this could change as the story line progresses.

One major difference between what I like and what my players like: I love running adventures in my home-grown campaign world, while my payers adore the Planescape setting. I compromise and allow the story to flow into both settings.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2780 by redgravewriter

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Message 2791 of 6726 Reply

Re: Help! blackbart69c
(33/M/Calgary, AB) 8/25/00 2:21 pm
Don't forget that you modify for other factors as well. High strength (melee weapons) or dexterity (missile weapons), magic + of a weapon, beneficial magic (bless, etc.), etc.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2687 by knightmare6

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Message 2792 of 6726 Reply

TV Show alert Ima_Doppleganger
8/25/00 10:10 pm
Hi all
I hope I’m not upsetting anyone (more than usual) but there is a very cool show coming to PBS. Its called "Cadfael" the show gives you an insight into the mindset of the period, a few ideas on how to add flavor to village life or at least put your mind into it when you design a village, and the show ain't bad either. I have pasted the trailer so you can check it out.
Ima



Thursdays, August 24 through September 28, 2000 on PBS (check local listings)

MYSTERY!'s intrepid twelfth-century monk returns to PBS this summer in five, ninety-minute mystifications. Set in the medieval Benedictine abbey of Shrewsbury (impeccably recreated in Hungary, where the series was filmed), and based on the bestselling novels by Ellis Peters, the Cadfael series offers a fresh mix of costume drama, Middle Ages spirituality, and classic whodunit mystery -- and, of course, the gracious acting of Sir Derek Jacobi in the title role.


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Message 2793 of 6726 Reply

Re: which would you choose? cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 8/26/00 5:35 am
I am DMing a theives campaign. They (the players) kinda like it. It is a change of pace to play people that are not the good guys. Not to say they all played evil. Most actually played CN or N guys.

The Cpl

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2780 by redgravewriter

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Message 2794 of 6726 Reply

Hey thought I would let you guys know! jeditalk
8/26/00 5:48 pm
www.gamerstavern.net (The online free streaming talk show) is live tonight and they are talking about D&D 3rd ED. tonight. Thought you all might want to listen. They have a toll free number you can call in on the air as well. I dont know check it out it is kind of neat idea, and if they get a bunch of poeple listening it will be really cool


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Message 2795 of 6726 Reply

Back to the Third Edition Calitrojan
8/27/00 9:16 am
Our group is new to one another, and I promised them all I would review 3rd edition and decide if we would make the change or hold out as die hards. They all seem fine with this, but one of them purchased the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook. (I also bought the Handbook, but Amazon is taking a LONG time in sending it to me.)

Anyhow, I have been reading through it and am leaning towards using it... it certainly would be easier than lugging around those ocmplete books of... I do like all of this d20 solves all problems... its about time they made some things easier (I have been using the percentile dice to solve all problems.) It seems to be a streamlined system, but I would like those of you whom are most oppossed to it to give me your best reason why you don't like it. (especially those of you who have reviewed it) Please refrain from the WotC rretoric about how their capitalists out to take our money by making us buy new products every six months, it was the same in 2nd edition with the players handbook series and such. Lets stick with game mechanics.

Now some of my own pros and cons, I like the upgradeable skills... but am not real sure about the whole feats thing, why have em anyway, just make more skills... I like bards not needing a spell book, but am frightened of sorcerers being able to ast away like some magical machine gun. etc etc etc...


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Message 2796 of 6726 Reply

Who stays and who goes? messiah_of_metal
(M/FL) 8/27/00 5:41 pm
Who here is gonig to stay playin 2e and whos gon to convert to 3e? Or are you just going to use 3e for some campains ands 2e for others? WHATS IT GONIG TO BE!?!


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Message 2797 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? orgruff
(32/M/Adelaide, Australia) 8/27/00 7:28 pm
Whats it going to be? I still have 1st Ed books and I use them sometimes. I'm currently playing in a first Ed game online and its fun (when the DM finds the time) I was reluctant to change over to 2nd Ed but it was a change for the better. 3rd Ed will take some time. I think its a good thing to consolidate the game now and then to take in all the new material.

Orgruff

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2796 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2798 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 8/27/00 7:33 pm
Well, at first I was only going to adapt a couple of the rules from 3E into my campaign. I was planning on allowing wizards to gain bonus spells due to high intelligence and clerics to not have to prepare healing spells and just switch a healing spell for a prepared spell when they were needed. Also allowing healing spells to heal 1d8 per level. That was going to be about it. I had decided to not make a final decision until I went to a couple of the seminars at GenCon and make a final decision from the info gathered there. I have since decided to eventually switch to 3E; although not until after becoming familiar with the rules and all the core books. I also think that I will have to see what it will take to convert the psionicist to 3E rules. I have at least one PC and one major NPC in my campaign that are psi's. So it might be sometime before the actual change takes place, but I do plan on converting.
I was totally against buying all of the books again, but I didn't think twice about buying every book that I could for 2E and that pretty much changed my outlook on that argument against changing. Besides, I will most likely still use alot of the 2E books as references and for comparison purposes in the future. You can still get some great ideas from 2E.
Well, that's my answer and I'm sticking to it.

Dave

P.S. I will have to find out if they give rules for converting variant races into PCs'. My current favorite character is a fremlin mage named Katinflas "The Masterful".

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2796 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2799 of 6726 Reply

Re: TV Show alert Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/28/00 9:24 am
These should be good. I have read a couple of the Cadfael books by Ellis Peters, and they are somewhat entertaining (not fine literature, mind you, but entertaining nonetheless).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2792 by Ima_Doppleganger

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Message 2800 of 6726 Reply

Re: Back to the Third Edition Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/28/00 10:50 am
My biggest complaint about the third ed is mainly philosophical. Mechanically, I can see Message 2802 of 6726 Reply

3e Variant Races madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 8/28/00 12:09 pm
Dave wrote:

"P.S. I will have to find out if they give rules for converting variant races into PCs'. "

In addition to the expected material on sub-races (drow, duergar, etc.), the 3eDMG contains a variant rule for playing monsters. The section is roughly three pages long and only gives a few guidelines, refering the reader to the MM for statistics and specifics. Too bad I don't have the MM yet!!

-Scott

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2798 by Jiriki13

where many of the 3rd ed. changes are beneficial to the game. It is the "soft" stuff I am opposed to, like making any class available to any race, elimination of level limits, etc.

I am also opposed to the lack of backward compatability. There really wasn't much difference between the first and second editions. So you lost your monk, your assassin, and your half-orc (the latter two which came back in the complete handbooks)and you could start out at first level as a bard. Those are essentially the only real differences between the 1st and 2nd edition. First edition material is easily usable in 2nd edition games. Not so with 3rd edition, with or without a conversion manual.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2795 by Calitrojan

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Message 2801 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/28/00 10:54 am
For now I'm sticking with 2nd ed. I have absolutely no complaints, either personally or from my players, with the way things are now. We love the game the way we play it now. Why change for the sake of change?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2796 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2802 of 6726 Reply

3e Variant Races madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 8/28/00 12:09 pm
Dave wrote:

"P.S. I will have to find out if they give rules for converting variant races into PCs'. "

In addition to the expected material on sub-races (drow, duergar, etc.), the 3eDMG contains a variant rule for playing monsters. The section is roughly three pages long and only gives a few guidelines, refering the reader to the MM for statistics and specifics. Too bad I don't have the MM yet!!

-Scott

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2798 by Jiriki13

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Message 2803 of 6726 Reply

help! jeditalk
8/28/00 1:15 pm
I am helping gamerstavern.net start out, They are an online talk show about rpg and the like. We have tried to look for places to promote the show but those far with not much luck. If anyone knows any sites that would be good to talk to please let me know, If you have any ideas emial me at jeditalk@yahoo.com

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Message 2804 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? homer_666_69
(22/M/Lockport, NY) 8/28/00 5:08 pm
I HAVE ONE THAT'S CONVERTING JUST FOR THE SAKE OF CONVERTING IT. I GOT ONE THAT'S STAYING AND I JUST STARTED A 3E CAMPAIGN.(MAYBE I CAN OVERLOAD MY BRAIN WITH GAME MATERIAL AND LOSE MY JOB OR SOMETHING. IT'LL BE JUST LIKE THE TIME I TOOK THAT HOME WINE MAKING COURSE AND FORGOT HOW TO DRIVE.)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2796 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2805 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? messiah_of_metal
(18/M/FL) 8/28/00 7:47 pm
Whow.. sorry. Diddnt mean to bring up a touchy subject Homer.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2804 by homer_666_69

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Message 2806 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 8/28/00 8:37 pm
I just found this club (half of you just groaned.. I heard you.. Plus the voices told me..). For those who don't know me from another club, I'm staying with 2e (1e if my books had survived this long..).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2796 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2807 of 6726 Reply

Re: 3e Variant Races leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 8/28/00 9:03 pm
The problem with using monsters as races has always seemed to me thusly.. (and, of course, other versions of races already used as characters - i.e. drow elves, druegar, etc. - are exempt..)

My intent here, by the way, has nothing to do with what version of the game you're playing.

Take for example Fred the Lizard Man. Using an old book (as there is no new one, yet..), Fred has 2+1 hit dice. Presumably, this comes from growing among lizard men, learning how to defend himself, and, perhaps, being a little more resilient than your average soft and squishy human. The hit dice go up as Fred moves up in his realm, i.e. Patrol Leader, Subleader, War leader, perhaps Lizard King. 'Experience' wouldn't seem to play as much a role as following or becoming a good leader of other lizard men. It says 'advanced' lizard men may use some weapons, but apparently the vast majority just use 2 claws and a bite. Fred would have to get training from 'advanced' lizard men (at least initially - perhaps in time, if he lived, he could gain training from a less lizardly trainer). Ok, Fred *is* an advanced lizard man. But that's just statistically speaking.

Now if Fred wanders into town, even if accompanied by other adventurers of a more common race seen in said town, he will be under suspicion. Sure, it's a good role-playing possibility, but you're likely to cost the people you are adventuring with. Fred has eaten humans in the past, and even if he turned aside this racial tradition, the humans he meets will not know that.. And many humans may be prone to attack first, ask questions later..

Being a 'monster' PC, unless travelling with a group of like-minded monster PCs, hardly seems worth it, as you would face distrust at every corner, your party could suffer from higher prices (if allowed to purchase at all) and more intense scrutiny, and most NPCs (wonderful pockets of information) will run fleeing in terror.. At least with fellow lizard men, Fred could attack the human town who so easily misjudged him..

The possibilities are truly endless without resorting to monster PCs. If you want to be a character the rest of the town will find distasteful, be a thief or an evil warrior or something. At least then, you could still drink in a tavern and flirt with barmaids and/or sit in a booth (tails seem most inconvenient to me..).

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2802 by madpoet418

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Message 2808 of 6726 Reply

Re: 3e Variant Races shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 8/29/00 4:39 am
leeok .. we didn't groan that loudly.

I agree that it is very easy to play an unusual character without resorting to having unusual heredity.

Most of the campaigns I have run were human-centric, with representatives of other races (even elves, dwarves, halflings, and such) always being looked upon as an oddity and spoken about in hushed tones.

Halflings, gnomes and even dwarves, living in a human society (not so much elves, but to an extent) are always reminded of how the bar stool is too big, they have to stand on their tiptoes to look out the window, etc.

Of course, I do include a bit of reverse discrimination (or is that "equal opportunity") in the form of a tavern/inn called "The Muddy Burrow" in one of the larger cities. It's a halfling-run establishment, the front door is 4' high, the ceiling is 5', the bar stools are foot-stool sized, and if a human (or elf, even) is not careful, they're likely to bang their head on the second floor balcony on their way out .. but the barkeep is a wealth of information (after you tip him VERY well)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2807 by leeok31

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Message 2809 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/29/00 8:02 am
Welcome Leeok31, and if you really want to stay with 1e, there is always eBay. They have 1e stuff on there everyday, some even boast mint condition.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2806 by leeok31

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Message 2810 of 6726 Reply

Re: 3e Variant Races Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 8/29/00 8:18 am
I follow a basic rule of thumb when dealing with monster PC's. If they are bipedal humanoids, that are capable of taking on a character class, are not so powerful as to upset my delicate game balance, and I can fit it seamlessly into the storyline of my campaign, then so be it.

The Complete Book of Humanoids did a fair job of developing monster races for PC use. I have always used the half ogre (and the half orc, even after the fall of 1e). And I have had a goblin PC, and a few Planescape races in my campaign. Everything works fine. So far, no one has played a drow or a duergar. Oh, and there was one PC who was reincarnated as a bugbear once, too.

The "shunned or hunted" aspect of unusual PC races is fun to play around with. Currently in my campaign, there is a tiefling PC who has blue skin and solid black eyes. He is a bounty hunter from the planes hunting his quarry in my prime material campaign world. It is fun watching him take great pains to hide his appearance. He only operates at night, and then with a heavy grey cowl. His CG alignment does little to bypass the fears of those he encounters. There was an interesting scuffle with the city watch, where he tried desperately not to kill anyone (and succeeded) and another encounter with a paladin that had a magical sword (+3 against outer planar creatures). The other PCs recognize and accept his dilemma and help him, since he is such a necessary ally.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2807 by leeok31

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Message 2811 of 6726 Reply

for those looking for 1st Edition books knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/29/00 8:52 am
If you still use 1st edition rules, then you should check out your local RPG store for a company had recently re-released many of the 1st edition books on a minature scale for only $10 a book.

Of the ones that were released they were:

Dungeon Master's Guide
Player's Handbook
Monster Manual I
Monster Manual II
Fiend Folio
Manual of the Planes
Oriental Adventures
Unearthed Arcana
Wilderness Survival Guide
Greyhawk Adventures
Forgotten Realms Adventures
Dragonlance Adventures

there may be like one or two more that I forgot, but I find them great since they are pocket-sized, and cheaper than trying to get the original ones.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2809 by Umbratikus

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Message 2812 of 6726 Reply

Re: 3e Variant Races Calitrojan
8/29/00 10:44 am
Indeed the groanw as not loud, though lengthy... with the occassional mumbling.

And now for my two cents (retail value... 1 penny)

I too run a homeocentric campaign, though the other races have altered roles ... Imean what is thepoint of building a campaign if you aren't going to give EVERYONE an alternate role. My humans are former slaves of an evil elven empire that they overthrew... You can see that immediately elves and humans don't mix so good. No one likes a half-elf, but we stepped that up a bit, as humans think of half-elves as an evil spawn, because who would mate with an elf other than an evil person? The elves see the poor buggers a lower than human, because who would mate with a human other than the lowest caste?

Continuing on, everyone fears the gnomes... why? They come from a barbaric, nomadic civilization that exist in the harshest desert (and rumor is they are cannibals)... halflings are the cute loveable teddy bear, though don't irritate them, they control my version of amnesty... they have their own nation where all but the black listed are welcome, being blacklisted is a complex process, but if you don't have the proper paperwork... expect to find the door.

And the dwarves, guardians of the underworld... feared by elves (not hated) as the dwarves who travel the surface world ar enormally the hunters of the race. THey are in search of minions of the evil forces of the underworld, as the clans below have recruited many an elf and human to do their dirtywork up top.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2808 by shinto_gaijin

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Message 2813 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? homer_666_69
(22/M/Lockport, NY) 8/29/00 2:43 pm
IT'S OKAY. MY THERAPIST TELLS ME I'M JUST 7892 SESSIONS AWAY FROM BECOMING A PRODUCTIVE MEMBER OF SOCIETY. THAT'S NOT TO LONG RIGHT? RIGHT? RIGHT?
RIIIIGGGHHHTTTT???!!??

ANSWER ME!!!!!!!@#$%&%*!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2805 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2814 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? Ima_Doppleganger
8/29/00 3:56 pm
My Therapist's son just went into collage, so I’m only four years from becoming a rational member of society. And why is it spelles - The rapist - ?
Ima

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2813 by homer_666_69

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Message 2815 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 8/29/00 5:26 pm
I'm really not spending any more money on the game at all. But as most real questions, problems, or inquiries transend version, I find lots to talk about..;)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2809 by Umbratikus

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Message 2816 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? orgruff
(32/M/Adelaide, Australia) 8/29/00 8:17 pm
I have finally managed to find enough time to have more than a quick glance at 3rd Ed. I think its definately marketed at new players. I like a lot of what I have seen and I do not think there will be big compatability problems. It is a bigger change than the change to 2Ed but not as big (IMO) as the change from the boxed D&D to AD&D. In some respects it goes back to boxed D&D. Extra HD for characters, movement is more similar to those rules for example. I think the skill system is better. Boxed and AD&D had no skill systems for appraising or riding etc so 2Ed was a big improvement there. 2Ed also provided kits to smooth over all the optional PC clases listed in Dragon Mag and other places as AD&D did. 3rd Ed goes a step further and allows Players to let their characters pick and choose skills, classes and all sorts to create that unusual character, or to define that difference between two tall male human warriors who wield longswords and wear platemail. I also like it that orc warleaders (for example) can have more than just a few extra HD to make them tougher opponants. A good DM will be able to make the new system really rock.

I'm cautiously optimistic that it will be a good thing for role playing. It should be no drama to modify any new products to the old systems or vice versa if you so choose.

Orgruff, Dwarf of the new Millenium

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2815 by leeok31

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Message 2817 of 6726 Reply

I knew I'd find you eventually! purplecrisp
8/29/00 11:38 pm
AHA! I knew there would be a group of fellow DMs out there to discuss with. It was just a matter of time before I found you guys.

Being a good DM is a lonely job. Who do you turn to and scream "I just came up with the greatest adventure idea ever!"? No one, because everyone around you is a player. SIGH.

Purplecrisp


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Message 2818 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? purplecrisp
8/29/00 11:46 pm
Orgruff, I've been DMing the 3rd ed. since it came out. Let me tell you that I was terrified when I heard it was coming. "What do you mean there's no more Thaco?!?" or "Your rogue can deflect the arrows my goblin is shooting at you?!?" were just a couple of the panicky cries players could hear me making.

But I have to say I really love it now. I run three games a week and one of the most common things I hear during combat is "Oh, is it my turn again, already?".

We don't even need to mention the fact that the PHB itself is 10 times better than TSR's version and a 3rd cheaper. Hooray for WotC!

Purplecrisp

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2816 by orgruff

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Message 2819 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 8/30/00 4:41 am
Once I get the opportunity to buy all three books, I will be converting. I've already got some ideas that will probably work very well in my OA campaign.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2818 by purplecrisp

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Message 2820 of 6726 Reply

DM advice? purplecrisp
8/30/00 5:22 pm
One of my groups has entered a city and are planning on finding a dog and putting him in the 'dog battle pit' so they can bet on him. They hope to defeat a peticular war dog by the name of Destroyer. Now I could easily just use war dog stats and treat it like a regular battle, but it seems something different should be utilized here. Anyone have any ideas on how I can make this peticular situation something the players won't soon forget? Anyone ever DMed something similar to this before?

Purplecrisp


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Message 2821 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? homer_666_69
(22/M/Lockport, NY) 8/30/00 5:28 pm
BECAUSE THEY RAPE YOUR WALLET AND HAVE POWER OVER YOUR MIND.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2814 by Ima_Doppleganger

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Message 2822 of 6726 Reply

Re: DM advice? leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 8/30/00 5:34 pm
Never DMed something like this, but perhaps this dog, Destroyer, is actually a magically altered Lion or some such.. Maybe even something wierder, that'll transform in mid battle back to it's natural form, sending all the crowds screaming in fear, swallowing whole their war dog challenger, and running loose in the city..

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2820 by purplecrisp

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Message 2823 of 6726 Reply

Re: DM advice? DWalker911
(34/M/Attleboro, MA) 8/30/00 5:41 pm
What about making Destroyer a bitch and have their dog hump her instead of fighting.
Or how about both dogs are from the same litter and are actually pretty chummy.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2822 by leeok31

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Message 2824 of 6726 Reply

Re: DM advice? SCA_Bard
(23/F/Barony of Storvick) 8/30/00 5:54 pm
Your PCs are *participating* in this?

I am put in mind of a Knights of the Dinner Table episode where the party encounters a wounded man begging for help. They immediately start arguing over where they should kill him, or torture him and then kill him.

The outraged GM transforms the fellow into a god... unfortunately, the god is blind and can't actually *find* the PCs to extract justice for their callous acts.

I'd make their challenger dog something shapeshifted and powerful... a bronze dragon, or a high level druid (although I'm pulling a blank on why a druid would be in a city in dog form). They throw the poor thing into the pit, it returns to its real form, merrily destroys the fight pit and the losers who run it, and puts a geas on the PCs to always aid animals in distress, or to go on a quest for a woodland/animal diety, or some other retribution.

(Obviously, I don't approve of your PCs course of action ;-) )

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2823 by DWalker911

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Message 2825 of 6726 Reply

Re: DM advice? Ima_Doppleganger
8/30/00 6:19 pm
The local deity of Animals, say, decides to make a statement. As the battle starts, he/she transforms the PC that thought this up into the challenger dog and at the end of the battle the PC sustains full damage (unable to magically heal) and is quested to help abused animals for one year or slowly revert back into the dog. And the original dog, he becomes a “Familiar” to the new pet lover, with the PC sustaining damage as per Familiar spell. That is if the PC lives. Use “War dog (PC) vs. Warg (Destroyer). }:-)>
Ima

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2824 by SCA_Bard

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Message 2826 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? Dragonwulf_1
8/30/00 6:31 pm
Please fix your caps button, you're shouting.

Dragonwulf

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2821 by homer_666_69

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Message 2827 of 6726 Reply

Re: DM advice? prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 8/30/00 6:53 pm
LOL, I actually DM'ed something similar. It was for 1rst Level PCs who just created their characters. They were all set to do something epic. I had their first mission be find a missing dog. LOL. There were dog gladitorial games in the city and the Mayor bred dogs for a hobby. His prize dog had been dognapped. The PC's were supposed to get the dog back.

For the gladiatorial combat, I used simple opposed rolls. Each dog had a different bonus. This made it easy to calculate odds for each combat. There was a lot of betting activity in this town. (Providing the PCs a way to make contact with the underworld if desired)

Anyway, the combat was simple and it was single elimination. There was a newcomer who was cheating. He was using a druid shapechanged into a dog and bet heavily on himself. He was disqualified when a spectator used a Gem of True Seeing on the druid/dog. (The dogs he beat got to fight it out for his position.)

The dognappers could be scaled to a level suitable for any party. They were trying to influence the contest, of course. You can have them dognap your PC's dog.

If you want interesting combat, have them fight it out using actual combat rules. Now for the interesting part. In 3E, monsters can have classes and levels. I would give "Destroyer" some number of levels in Fighter. Including Feats. Make up some cool doggie Fighter feats. Like "Stunning Paw". Or use "Weapon Focus (Jaws)" and "Weapon Focus (Claws)"

Prolix

Join the BEST 3E Club today.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild


<<>>

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2820 by purplecrisp

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Message 2828 of 6726 Reply

Re: DM advice? knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 8/30/00 7:23 pm
How about making the dog, the Dog Lord, one of the animal lords of the Beastlands? He is here to avenge this crime that has been perpetrated on his kin.

It's easy to create their stats if you don't have the Planescape Monster Manual.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/alltheplanescomecalling


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Message 2829 of 6726 Reply

Re: Back to the Third Edition wylie_665
(27/M/Porphyria) 8/31/00 5:28 am
I'm playing in a 3E game and finding it so-so. I think the best comment I have heard is "it's an OK fantasy game, but it's not D&D," while the most telling argument against 3E is that the combat maniac of our group loves it.

I personally find the feats an unnecessary additional layer, and allocating skill points too much trouble. I'm baffled as to why they rewrote so many spells that worked perfectly fine in 2E.

Our DM is already considering adopting some of the house rules I used under 2nd Ed.

When I DM again it will be 2nd Ed.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2800 by Umbratikus

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Message 2830 of 6726 Reply

Comments and a request Calitrojan
8/31/00 2:14 pm
Well, for comments I will go with the ever popular topic, the 3rd edition. after reading the PHB like 30 times, and making a few test NPCs and dealing out a few additional experiments with a former player hwo is no longer with our group, I have decided to use this system... of course I will wait to onvert until all three core books are out and I have had time to convert my campaign world... but eventually we ar egoing to change... also there will be the obvious house rules, racial limitations and such. Anyways, now onto the requests.

I am looking to spice up my pantheon with some graphics. I was hoping to find some suitable symbols to use as visual representations of my gods' holy symbols. Any help in this area is appreciated as I lack one of the keys skills of all DMs, artistic ability. (I am the only person I know of to flunk art 101 in college.)


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Message 2831 of 6726 Reply

Re: Comments and a request SCA_Bard
(23/F/Barony of Storvick) 8/31/00 3:36 pm
Museum postcards!

Seriously... if you live near a large city with a good collection of exotic doodads, you might be able to scare up some nifty holy symbols that way. I picked up a 35p color glossy of a golden snake-thing at the British Museum with just such a use in mind.

Otherwise, maybe pictures from (often online) magazines like "Past Times" or "Art and Artifact" will have something you like. These have often got little kitchy statuettes with Egyptian, medieval, classical, Japanese, or Chinese motifs. It isn't hard to sort of imagine the thing a little flatter and attatched to a cord. (Or otherwise altered to be made portable, in the case of more non-traditional holy symbols)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2830 by Calitrojan

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Message 2832 of 6726 Reply

Thanks for the DM advice purplecrisp
8/31/00 6:12 pm
I REALLY appreciate all the suggestions. They really inspire creative thought. I think I'm gonna keep it low key and have 'Destroyer' complete with poison coated teeth. When the players get to finding a dog, I'm going to have them run into a pathetic looking, underfed thing missing one leg. If they look into this animal further, they'll discover that it actually used to belong to a Svifneblin (or however you spell it)and was mutated as a hobby. It has the ability to change into a fierce looking beast with one adamantite leg teleporting onto it's body to replace the missing leg. Once they pass through this particular adventure, the beast could become an NPC party member/pet/mascot. Of course, this leads to a future adventure with the evil svifneblin master showing up to collect his pup. But any DM worth his weight in rusty daggers saw THAT adventure seed coming. :)

Once again, thanks for the help guys! I would never have come up with these details without you.

Purplecrisp.


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Message 2833 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? homer_666_69
(22/M/Lockport, NY) 8/31/00 6:59 pm
I wasn't shouting I just have an extremely loud voice. It was the only way I could project it onto a computer screen. i'll just whisper from now on.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2826 by Dragonwulf_1

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Message 2834 of 6726 Reply

Re: Who stays and who goes? Dragonwulf_1
8/31/00 7:48 pm
Thank You.

Dragonwulf

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2833 by homer_666_69

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Message 2835 of 6726 Reply

Re: DM advice? orgruff
(32/M/Adelaide, Australia) 9/1/00 2:20 am
When it comes to dog-fighting I have always been a fan of the 'long-nosed short-legged thick-skinned terrier'..... Also known as the crocodile. Perhaps the players might send their dog in to be eaten by the 'long-nosed short-legged thick-skinned terrier' before catching on. No need for polymorph or true seeing. The best magic always occurs in peoples minds.

Orgruff

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2825 by Ima_Doppleganger

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Message 2836 of 6726 Reply

Re: Thanks for the DM advice Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/1/00 8:11 am
...Then, after the PCs' whelp defeats Destroyer, Destroyer's owners publicly accuse the PCs of cheating, causing a whole other ruckus. The fact that Destroyer had poison coated teeth is irrelevant, since he lost (assuming he loses).

BTW, wouldn't poison coated teeth kill the dog who owns those teeth?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2832 by purplecrisp

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Message 2837 of 6726 Reply

A campaign Calitrojan
9/1/00 12:36 pm
Well, a quick overview and then on to suggestions and comments. The party recently arrived in a village, where they have recently driven off some bandits pretending to be undead who were inhabiting a haunted lumber camp (this is the main area of lumber production for the nation). Well it turns out the Lumber Camp was haunted and the bandits, while fleeing, tripped the trigger that released the evil buried beneath the camp. Well after that was all cleared up the PCs discovered that the bandits had been hired by the Order of the Crescent, henceforth to be called the OTC. Well the OTC hired some goblins to disrupt the agriculture of the region, which the PCs also tangled with, and they ran off into the wilderness to regroup. After all of that one of the OTC's minions was caught talking to the goblin leader... well the chief was killed but the OTC guy got away as he used some magic to turn one of the party members on the rest of them and well, we lost a character. Now the PCs have returned to the home base, and in the few weeks they were off chasing goblins and OTC shadows the village has revived, merchants have returned and a small garrison has begun building a fort. Apparently the government has a sudden need for wood with a war raging in the south. Well the PCs are about to go hunt for the bandit HQ, and will stumble upon an abandoned elven crypt that was sealed magically. Most of the magical seals were stolen - the last being taken by the bandit headman (as they were all made of gold). I plan on having something evil excaping hte crypt before the PCs arrive, and having them pick up one of these seals later on, as the evil thing has to retireve all the seals and destroy them to be free. (I was thinking a modified vampire that would set up a good arch nemisis for the party later on.) So this is where we stand, any suggestions? Some new plot twists? I realize this is a basic outlilne and not all the NPCs and their backgrounds are in here... but hey I have seen you all ramble for days about nothing.


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Message 2838 of 6726 Reply

Re: A campaign SCA_Bard
(23/F/Barony of Storvick) 9/1/00 2:38 pm
Looks nifty! I guess my question is, what's OTC up to? Seems like they want to drive off the villagers (first the 'undead' bandits, then the goblins). Why? What's their eventual goal? The answer to that will surely spark some adventures.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2837 by Calitrojan

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Message 2839 of 6726 Reply

Re: Thanks for the DM advice leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/1/00 2:43 pm
yeah, the poison coated teeth thing kinda threw me too..lol.. I mean, perhaps magical poison that doesn't affect dogs, but then what good would it be in a dog fight..?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2836 by Umbratikus

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Message 2840 of 6726 Reply

POLL: cost of XP in GP prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/1/00 4:44 pm
If your characters could buy XP with gold, how much would you pay for it?

If your characters could sell XP for gold, at what price would you sell it?

One condition, your sell number cannot be more than twice your buy number.


Prolix

Join the BEST Yahoo club for discussing 3E topics.
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Message 2841 of 6726 Reply

Poison teeth and other fun games... purplecrisp
9/1/00 6:58 pm
I thought someone might ask me about the poison teeth thing. I just figured that Destroyer had been granted an immunity to that peticular poison. Either over a period of years (like The dread Pirate Roberts & iocane powder) or through a potion given to me just before the poison is placed on his teeth. I like the idea of the party being accused of cheating after the fight though. I think I'll steal that! Thanks! I'll let you guys know how it went. The game is Saturday night.

Purplecrisp

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2839 by leeok31

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Message 2842 of 6726 Reply

Re: A campaign Calitrojan
9/1/00 7:04 pm
The OTC is a cult of the goddess of the moon. They have been hired by the Heir Apparent of the nation (Darag) that is currently at war with our hero's homeland (Kyrie). This is the only area that can provide lumber products for Kyrie domestically, otherwise they have to ship in lumber from across a bay and their ships are subject to pirate attacks. (I have an online group involved in the border area... so I have the whole conflict fleshed out.) I was thinking that the OTC would handle the destruction of Kyrie's domestic lumber trade in a very underhanded way, hiring thugs and monsters and such. Of course they have agents all over and are based in a nearby city, though they meet in the remains of a ruined temple left over from the old Empire (A race of elven overrlords once enslaved human kind... elves are not very well liked). But I thought the party would have plenty of fun hunting down the OTC and in the process finding out that there is a vampire hunting down anyone who has one of the magic seals. My main problem is, how do they do this stuff, where do I throw out some ideas and clues and what not. I know I know, you are all saying, well we can't help, we don't know much about your campaign. Well I have a lot of information at www.geocities.com/calitrojan . for all you humbuggers who need background.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2838 by SCA_Bard

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Message 2843 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP Calitrojan
9/1/00 7:09 pm
Are you saying money can buy ANYTHING in your world? Including happiness? Where is this place and what does a one way ticket cost?

Seriously... well semi anyway, I would never let my players buy experience points... I rely on them doing stupid things and getting beat up by my monsters and NPCs for it... that is how one learns in real life... getting your milk money stolen from you in the playground... You know who I am talking about Mike Stubbs! I know where you live and I am much bigger than I was in 5th grade!

But anyway, if you want them to buy some XP then have em get rolled by a hooker or robbed in a drunken bar brawl, or conned into some sort of business deal... make em lose everything they have in some elaborate scheme. The give em like 10 XP for falling for it. Why only 10... well money can't buy you everything.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2840 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2844 of 6726 Reply

Re: Poison teeth and other fun games... leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/1/00 10:08 pm
This reminds me of a story I read by the guy who wrote 'the Terminator'. There was a Dr. Darque' Angel, probably mispelled, who injected little doses of 'death' into people, and eventually they couldn't be killed - of course, if they stopped treatments, they aged incredibly fast but never died...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2841 by purplecrisp

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Message 2845 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/1/00 11:20 pm
I'm asking because Third Edition rules did set a price for XP. At least it can be inferred from the prices they set on magic items.

A magic item that sells for 1000gp costs a spellcaster 500gp, 40 XP and 1 day to make.

Therefore a spellcaster cannot value his XP at more than 12.5gp each. That's the way of the world in 3E, like it or not. And 12.5gp is assuming the value of 1 day of his time is zero.

Prolix.

<<>>

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2843 by Calitrojan

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Message 2846 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/1/00 11:32 pm
So it 'costs' XP to make magic items? Sounds like something else to rant against 3e for..lol..

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2845 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2847 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP purplecrisp
9/2/00 5:02 pm
I actually like the whole idea of spending XP on magic items. I was running a group a year or so ago that went up to about 16th or 17th level and they were making magic items left and right. I just kept thinking that there should be some kind of payment other than gold for this (they were, of course, incredibly rich).

Purplecrisp

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2846 by leeok31

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Message 2848 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/2/00 5:40 pm
Instead of charging them experience points, I would have made them more aware of the time constraints.. Time during which they can do very little else.. Meanwhile, the land is being overrun by some sinister evil.. PLUS.. just because they can make it doesn't mean it will work..

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2847 by purplecrisp

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Message 2849 of 6726 Reply

A DM on the brink of a breakdown messiah_of_metal
(18/M/FL) 9/2/00 7:12 pm
*sighs* So here I am... angered and frusterated. Why you ask? Why you ask again? Well... I love to DM but the thing is the PC's in my town suck. They suck ass. Everytime I make an awesome campaine my PC's always mess it up. They do stupid things like pee on each other... and practice their aim with their missile weapons in an inn room... and always lookin to pick up chicks in AD&D, wich usualy sidetracks them from thier mission. What do I do? I want to DM... BADLY! BUT I CANT WITH THESE BAFOONS! Are there any ideas out there? Maybe someone has an idea of a campaine that involves peeing, pickin up chicks, or being a complete idiot! *sniff sniff*. It pisses me off SO! *falls on knees and crys* WHY? WHY? WHHHHYYYYYYYYY!?!?!?!


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Message 2850 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/2/00 9:31 pm
Go down to a local comic book store, or some place like that, and put up an ad for new players. Sounds like these are young people - shoot for an older crowd.. If I was you I wouldn't waste my time and effort playing with them.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2849 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2851 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/2/00 9:37 pm
This also occurs to me - are they all equally responsible, or does there seem to be one bad apple that drives it? You might be able to lose the bad apple and get yourself a decent group to play with..

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2850 by leeok31

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Message 2852 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 9/3/00 2:43 am
Exactly how bad are they ? Are they bad enough to say... hit on the travelling noble who just happens to be a powerful Transmuter. One that will become enraged at their improper treatment of a person of her stature, that she'll turn them all into dogs...

HAHAHAHA........

-K6
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/alltheplanescomecalling

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2849 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2853 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown purplecrisp
9/3/00 6:04 am
I agree with Leeok. Find an older group. It's really too bad when a DM who's obviously put alot of work and hope into his game gets hit with player wannabes who waste his talents. When you do find new players, tell them ahead of time that you take the game very seriously and want players who are going to create an epic storyline in a detailed and serious world.

Purplecrisp

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2852 by knightmare6

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Message 2854 of 6726 Reply

Dog fight gone horribly wrong! purplecrisp
9/3/00 6:11 am
The whole purpose of the fight was to win (what they thought) was a magical shield that hung on the wall of the tavern owned by the same guy who owns Destroyer (read earlier messages if you don't know what I'm talking about). The brick of the party, who's a human soul trapped in a Stone Golom, decided to wait until night fall and reach into the wall where the sheild hangs and walk away with it (including a chunk of the wall). This plan worked and they ended up later doing battle with the evil tavern owner when he attacked them. After killing him, the Golom blurted out "oh no! We have to find Destroyer or he'll starve!". Now the party has put their current mission on hold as they search the city for this dog placed somewhere (the basement of the tavern, but they have yet to look there).

Actually, I really love it when players take my worlds and do outragious things I never expected of them. But after all that work on the dog fights, it never happened. Oh well, such is the life of a good DM. :)

Purplecrisp


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Message 2855 of 6726 Reply

Re: A campaign tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/3/00 11:11 am
>>Looks nifty! I guess my question is, what's OTC up to? Seems like they want to drive off the villagers (first the 'undead' bandits, then the goblins). <<

And we would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those pesky adventurers!

Sorry. It just really reminded me of a Scooby Doo episode.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2838 by SCA_Bard

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Message 2856 of 6726 Reply

Re: Thanks for the DM advice tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/3/00 11:12 am
>>yeah, the poison coated teeth thing kinda threw me too..lol.. I mean, perhaps magical poison that doesn't affect dogs, but then what good would it be in a dog fight..? <<

Just give Destroyer the antidote first.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2839 by leeok31

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Message 2857 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/3/00 11:16 am
>>If your characters could buy XP with gold, how much would you pay for it?

If your characters could sell XP for gold, at what price would you sell it?<<

Well, since the characters have no idea what XP is, I'll assume you mean "life essence."

Most of my characters are good and would never buy life essence at any price.

Most of my characters are intelligent and would never sell their life essence at any price.

Now some evil wiz/sor/cleric may develop a spell to be cast over (demi)human sacrifices that will suck xp out of their victims to power enchantments. I may develop a spell like this after I'm more familiar with the magic system in 3E.

Anyone want to take a shot at it now?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2840 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2858 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/3/00 11:24 am
>>*sighs* So here I am... angered and frusterated. Why you ask? Why you ask again? Well... I love to DM but the thing is the PC's in my town suck. They suck ass. Everytime I make an awesome campaine my PC's always mess it up. They do stupid things like pee on each other... and practice their aim with their missile weapons in an inn room... and always lookin to pick up chicks in AD&D, wich usualy sidetracks them from thier mission. What do I do? I want to DM... BADLY! BUT I CANT WITH THESE BAFOONS! Are there any ideas out there? Maybe someone has an idea of a campaine that involves peeing, pickin up chicks, or being a complete idiot! *sniff sniff*. It pisses me off SO! *falls on knees and crys* WHY? WHY? WHHHHYYYYYYYYY!?!?!?! <<

Stop playing with 10 year olds. Find some adults that play. I'd ask to join an established group and then ask to DM sometimes. That way you can check out their maturity before you commit to the work. Most DMs wouldn't mind taking a break as a player occasionally. (I know I wouldn't!)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2849 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2859 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dog fight gone horribly wrong! prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/3/00 12:22 pm
Work is never a waste for the resourceful DM. Destroyer will be maddened from hunger, or maybe just in a really bad mood. He'll attack those PC's (hopefully by surpise). Perhaps that other dog(s) you've designed, if the PCs have never seen them, will be with Destroyer and will attack the PCs as well.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2854 by purplecrisp

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Message 2860 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dog fight gone horribly wrong! leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/3/00 12:26 pm
And don't forget Destroyer's poisonous teeth..

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2859 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2861 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dog fight gone horribly wrong! purplecrisp
9/3/00 2:25 pm
LOL I love the way you guys think.

Actually, I'm leaving the possibility open for the party to gain Destroyer's favour if they handle the precarious situation well enough. Although I think you're right in the fact that in all probability, they'll end up doing battle with the deadly mutt since he IS going to try to rip their throats out at the first meeting. I'll let you guys know what happens.

Also, the city is after them for swipping the shield off the wall. It should prove entertaining.

Purplecrisp

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2860 by leeok31

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Message 2862 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dog fight gone horribly wrong! Ima_Doppleganger
9/3/00 2:58 pm
Hold on now!!! You seem to forget one little fact, THEY STOLE TOMETHING!!! AND KILLED SOMEONE!!! Shouldn’t the local authorities be after the thieves / murders? Wouldn’t they be at the remains of the tavern investigating? Don’t thieves always return to the scene of the crime? (remember, just because there the local authorities, there not necessarily lawful or good). Oh, yeah, the thieves guild may be a little upset as well, weren’t they trying to cheat to get the valuable shield as well? And then there is the taverns silent partner…

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2861 by purplecrisp

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Message 2863 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dog fight gone horribly wrong! Ima_Doppleganger
9/3/00 3:00 pm
Oops, Sorry, SOMETHING.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2862 by Ima_Doppleganger

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Message 2864 of 6726 Reply

Re: Dog fight gone horribly wrong! purplecrisp
9/3/00 6:07 pm
Well, the city IS after them for theft of the shield (and part of the wall). But the Tavern/dog owner attacked them in an alley. Besides, the murder of a crooked gambler doesn't exactly get the authorities all worked up.

As for the upset Thieves Guild, that is a FINE idea! They did capture and interigate Groll the thief to find out about the shield in the first place. So the guild even knows who took it. (Thieves always seem to know more that the city guard)

I'm way ahead of you with the silent partner bit. Scrachlar the mage is currently pissed beyond belief that someone would dare kill one of his employees and steal HIS merchandise. The party has already gotten wind of the angry mage.

Once again, thanks so much for the helpful suggestions guys!!

Purplecrisp

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2862 by Ima_Doppleganger

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Message 2865 of 6726 Reply

Re: DM advice? ODYSSEUS_THE_TRAVELER
(31/M/HAVE SLEEPING BAG WILL HA) 9/3/00 6:24 pm
How bout the good ole reincarnation thing where the mind is still intact... yea yea,,, you could have yer dog be some kind of demon dog or something ( isnt a cambion a mix between humans and some lower plane being? why not with dogs?)
or go and read some of those old jack london books on white fang or whatever that dog of the norths name was.
Or am i just reading this message too damn late for my 2 cents to be worth spending?>

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2824 by SCA_Bard

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Message 2866 of 6726 Reply

day late and a dollar short again,,, ODYSSEUS_THE_TRAVELER
(31/M/HAVE SLEEPING BAG WILL HA) 9/3/00 6:37 pm
ok scratchthe whole jack london reincarnation scene since i was a bit late in the tellling!
but,,,
the shield, now there in itself can be a funky time. how powerfull is it? does it have an ego or intelligence or is it just pure evil ( or good if you have a opposite campaign) or does it have a interesting background " say son that looks like dagra the death dealers shield,,, i remember he swore he would come back from death for that shield,,,,"
the usual stuff with the thieves guild, the silent partner and the upset mage is really groovy too tho.


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Message 2867 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown messiah_of_metal
(18/M/FL) 9/3/00 9:43 pm
I aint playin with 10 year olds and they are the only ones in town who know how to play! My town isnt very big... its small. We aint got a local comic book store, we aint got no recreational center, all we got is books a million and a crap load of old people!!

Now you wonder... who the hell got me started? Well there once was a DM in our town, but he joined the Army, and so before he left he taught me the tricks of the trade of a DM. When he was the DM I was the guy who always kept the group in order, but now that I am the DM there is no order to the group. They dont respect NPC's enough so I cant make an NPC help keep order. All the NPC's I have made they steal, kill, and cheat from.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2858 by tuffnoogies

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Message 2868 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/3/00 11:12 pm
Well, the only option I see for you is giving them a hard row to hoe.. Make them suffer the consequences of their idiocy, and if they keep dying quick and meaningless deaths, they'll either A) get a hint, or B) quit playing..

Or maybe have NPCs that are obsenely powerful piss on them and hit on them.. if they take offense and attack him, he slaughters them, roll up new characters. After a few rounds of this, they will undoubtedly say something along the lines of 'this is stupid, why play?', to which you can say something along the lines of 'welcome to my world'.. If you have to go without a group for awhile, welcome to *my* world..lol..

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2867 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2869 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/3/00 11:13 pm
>>I aint playin with 10 year olds<<

I beg to differ. It may say different on their drivers license, but I'm talking maturity.

>>order, but now that I am the DM there is no order to the group. They dont respect NPC's enough so I cant make an NPC help keep order. All the NPC's I have made they steal, kill, and cheat from. <<

Then he didn't teach you *all* the tricks. Whatever the PCs can do to the NPCs, the NPCs can do to PCs. Turn the tables on your players and see how they like it.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2867 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2870 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 9/4/00 5:47 pm
Obnoxious Player (OP): I walk over to him, unbuckling my codpiece.

DM: No one else seems to notice the black cloud that is gathering over your head, right there in the bar.

OP: "Aha," I say to the barbarian, "I'll show you berserk mode!" I pee on him. Can I roll to hit?

DM: Before you manage to release the stream, a blue bolt of lightening arcs from above you and strikes you on the head. It knocks you down and magically removes your ability and need to urinate. Forever. Now, like I was saying...

-Scott

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2869 by tuffnoogies

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Message 2871 of 6726 Reply

The Dog Kickers madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 9/4/00 6:08 pm
I would like to share a very entertaining encounter that was actually used in Earthdawn but would work for AD&D. Thought your PCs might like it (or a variation); mine did.

The characters enter a large, round room with stone walls supporting twenty big, tough, iron doors. The entrance and exit close and lock as the characters walk in (tripped by a preasure plate). The room is about fifty feet in diameter and the only feature (besides the doors and some ominous bloodstains) is an iron stake in the center of the floor where a cute little puppy has been bound with a 10' length of chain.

(I don't know how the puppy stays alive and young, maybe he's a magical puppy, or an illusion, my players didn't ask)

Anyway, the puppy is lonely and runs to greet the PCs but he is stopped by the chain. The characters hear a click when the chain is pulled and one of the doors opens. Out come three creatures: a single, extremely challenging, party wrecker (I used an ogre zombie-like-thing with a magical weapon) and two dog kickers.

Dog kickers are pretty weak but VERY HARD TO HIT. They have one love in life: beating cute little puppies. Of course, every time they kick the dog he flies out to the edge of his chain: another click, another door opens, another trio emerges. Meanwhile the party is split between fighting off the brutes that are intent on thrashing them and protecting the poor dog. My dog kickers were undead orcs who were only semi-corpreal (only hit by magical weapons, high AC).

As for plot, well, it's a silly room and might not suit a serious campaign setting. I placed it in the tomb of an obsessed ex-adventurer (a wizard/rogue type) who knew that future heroes would plunder his treasures and swore that he would make them earn it. It was accompanied by equally silly and ridiculous encounters. But when the PCs were huddled around the dog in defensive postures, trying to regroup while they fought off the ogre things, there were no complaints.

-Scott


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Message 2872 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown pfclink
(26/M/Muskogee) 9/4/00 6:47 pm
Heres an idea that works in Shadowrun and should work here. Have them arrested. That right, the next time one of them decides to take a leak have the barkeep or whoever call for the town guard because he doesnt want his place smashed up. Have the guard arrest the pisser and his friends as accomplaces and then while their in jail have the jailer auction off their stuff to pay for their room, board, any damages, bail, etc. etc...
If this doesnt work, have the next NPC who gets peed on be wearing a "Glove of Razors" and let him help the PC with his urinary problem.LOL

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2867 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2873 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP rythter
(31/M/Braintree, MA) 9/4/00 8:36 pm
as noted in one of my earlier posts, I disagree with xp for gp (and do not see how you could exchange one for the other, one being a measure of how experienced the character is and an abstact concept; the other being a measure of wealth, and a concrete item)

See my poll at:
http://www.ziplink.net/~rythter/dnd.htm

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2840 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2874 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/4/00 9:16 pm
People seem to be really caught up in whether they like the idea or not. I'm not looking for whether people approve, or whether its possible.

If it were possible, at what price would a character sell his LIFEFORCE, measured in XP by players and DMs.

If it were possible, what price would a character be willing to pay to increase his LIFEFORCE, measured in XP by players and DMs.

In 3E, it is possible and easy to sell your lifefore or life essence or XP or whatever you want to call it. Make a magic item. Sell that magic item. You have effectively sold part of your lifeforce.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2873 by rythter

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Message 2875 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/4/00 9:26 pm
The reason why I am interested in what prices people would sell (or buy) lifeforce for is because it is so easy to sell your lifeforce in 3E.

No one has yet responded with a price.

Pretend it is possible. Would you sell a tiny part of your lifeforce (measured by 1 XP) for 1 gold piece? for 2? for 5? for 10? for 100?

Would you be willing to pay gold to increase your lifeforce a tiny amount (measured by 1 XP)? Would you pay 1 gold piece? 2? 5? 10? 100?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2874 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2876 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/4/00 11:19 pm
I would say one would have to be able to entertain the notion that it could be sold, then compare it to something else in order to come up with a price.

I can't.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2874 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2877 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP the_ageless_sage
(M/Why, i'm Here, of course.) 9/5/00 2:04 am
Question, If I am an Elven thief (3rd level), and I kill a Human courier (5th level fighter) and take a gem worth 10,000gp, am I better that an Elven thief (3rd level) that kills a Human drunk (5th level fighter) and takes a sword worth 20 gp?
TAS

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2873 by rythter

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Message 2878 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/5/00 9:22 am
No, not better, just luckier, braver, or more resourceful.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2877 by the_ageless_sage

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Message 2879 of 6726 Reply

Re: A campaign Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/5/00 10:46 am
Calitrojan,

It sounds like you have a pretty well-weaved campaign going on there. Have you thought of having the PCs find the head bandit AFTER the vampire thing has finished with him and retrieved the seal?

That would be a pretty darn good clue that something was amiss.

Perhaps one of the seals could have been found years ago by someone in the PCs home base town. When they return from battling the bandits and finding the dessicated head bandit, they could find a path of destruction through the town that happened while they were away. If I were one of the villagers, I would be pissed at the PCs.

Just a few ideas

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2837 by Calitrojan

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Message 2880 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/5/00 10:49 am
Money cannot buy experience, but it can buy experiences.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2840 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2881 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/5/00 11:14 am
Looks like you have gotten a lot of good ideas from the gallery here. Keep in mind that you are the DM. Perhaps you need to change your approach.

Instead of designing a linear adventure that the PCs need to embark on, design a few related encounters that tailor to your PC's juvenile play style. For instance, like others have mentioned, if they like playing urinary games, have them "piss off" someone who can kick their collective asses. Jail was a good idea, as would be a press gang. An offended noble with friends in high places. Perhaps one of the "chicks" a PC is hitting on a transvestite, or a succubus, or worse.

In short, make their antics not as much fun. Have dire consequences for their actions. Sometimes such children just need to be spanked. Use their frivolity against them. Make them think about what they are doing, and the possible consequences thereof. Then design your adventure hooks so that you can trick the PC's into thinking it was their idea in the first place, instead of you trying to lead them there. They may relish the thought of getting revenge on the guy that made them look foolish or killed their "bud," or of getting back that +4 Defender that the jailor decided to keep or auction off. These could be grand adventures in themselves. Plan well and then sit back and enjoy watching these characters dig their own graves.

Also keep in mind that the whole point of the game is to have fun. They like to play one way, you like to play another. If you force them to play your way completely, they might not have any fun, and quit. If you play the way they are making you play, you're not having any fun. You may have to find a happy medium somewhere, but again, remember that you are the DM.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2849 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2882 of 6726 Reply

Re: The Dog Kickers Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/5/00 11:18 am
Can't say I like that encounter, but I do like the idea of splitting the PCs' objectives. Forcing them to make difficult decisions under pressure is a lot of fun.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2871 by madpoet418

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Message 2883 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP Ima_Doppleganger
9/5/00 1:58 pm
I think the point of sage's comment was you cant equate experience points with gold pieces, something that the writers of 1ed, 2ed and 3ed seem to overlook. You have to give experience points for the esoterical i.e. lock picking, conning a rube out of information, a whimsical story, things that get no gold in return. As a GOOD DM you need to figure out how to do that.

Ima

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2878 by Umbratikus

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Message 2884 of 6726 Reply

Re: The Dog Kickers DWalker911
(34/M/Attleboro, MA) 9/5/00 3:31 pm
Re: cute puppy dog chained in circular room with doors.

Step 1: Kill cute puppy dog.
Step 2: Kill bad-@ss monsters.
Step 3: Kill dog kickers

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2882 by Umbratikus

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Message 2885 of 6726 Reply

Re: A campaign Calitrojan
9/5/00 3:49 pm
Umbratikus we think too much alike. I am having two new Players join the group mid dungeon. I have decided they will have hooked up with the bandit (hostages?) and been knocked unconcious when the bandits were fleeing. They will know that the bandit leader was talking abut setting up with some other folk at an old keep. I plan on sending the PCs on some off shoot adventure to find the magical key to the secret entrance to the keep then have them run amuk inside and open the gates for the cavalry squadron that is based in their home base. During this whole sharade they wil happen upon the dead bandit head man... and an evil NPC they recently fought (who happens to have a charm spell on the most powerful player int he group... hehehehe!) From there... well When I gett that far I am sure I can employ the vampire thing wreaking havoc in the home base area.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2879 by Umbratikus

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Message 2886 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown mattbcieri
(28/M/Upper Darby PA) 9/5/00 3:51 pm
So far, I have seen excellent replies to your dilema. Infact I think Umbratikus got to the heart of the matter, the point is to have fun, all of you. So I will say no more of this.

However, you are the DM. Perhapse I have DM'ed in Ravenloft too long, or am just good at devising cruel and unusual punishments for PC's: here are some purley evil Dm tricks yo store in your bag of holding:

1] Tahe the Succubuss Idea one giant stem further. I do not know which Anime I am stealing this Idea from but it was a a real gem.

The PC's hit upon a whoman who is all too wiling to comply. Well here's the treat: At the PC and this deamon are in the act of love-making (or however else you wish to describe it) certain key parts of her flesh soften to the point where the PC begins to slip into her!!! If the PC tries to pull himself free, she silidifies, and uses her arms to cuntinue to pull him into her (supposedly so she can devour his soul flesh, etx, this point is excellent for her to show some demonic fangs.) If the rest of the group is unawares, or unable to help, then chalk up another dead PC. (and what a horrible way to go).

I bet you, that if you pull this, the next time they meet a willing frmale, they might just run for their lives.

2] As if #1 was not evil enough, let the PC's have their fun, or woman. In fact, go so far as to describe this female as if you would descripe the Players' girlfriend, or some other female he REALLY likes. let him have his fun. Then, have her captured, or sold into slavery.

this should be a strong enough hook to get the party flying out the door to try to get her back (or bring to justice her oppressors), or if you are feeling truely evil, kill her!!! Now there is the quick wuest to aveng her, and a long time quest to find a way to bring her back to life, which might require doing several quests for a religious order.

3] As far as the pissing is concerned I do not have many suggestions other than pure brutality. Do you know why you should not pee on an electric fense? Well, a wizard of 5th l;evel (sometimes less) can throw that Lightining Bolt at the stream or puddle. (another dead PC)

4] I could think of other rude ways of dealing with this: Howbout a being cursed by a Witch, to the effect of contracting one of the VD's that hurts to pee? Or worse, the one where it becomes blocked so you can't!

5] taking #4 one step further, hive the PC about 3d6 days to live, unless he can become cured, but unfortunately they cant get the healing locally, because they annoyed the local healer's guild or religious order. Now it is a race against time.

The other thing about this is you will see how the party will pull together (or not) to save one of their own)

6] Lastly, remember the motion detecting flying darts in Dune? How about one that senses Pee. (why do you think there are 4 walls to an out house? keep these things out), what will be the reaction of the first PC who gets the dart up his ... "ouch, that's gotta hurt"

If you want to add insult to injury (and I do ;) ) have all the town folk laugh at the dolt with the dart. "He, he, he! Aint been noone been dang fool enough to get stuck like that 'fer 'bout 100 years."


Matt

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2881 by Umbratikus

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Message 2887 of 6726 Reply

Re: The Dog Kickers lysasius
(30/M/Holly Springs) 9/5/00 11:03 pm
Good going. Never liked those damned little cute puppies anyway... Ha :)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2884 by DWalker911

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Message 2888 of 6726 Reply

Re: The Dog Kickers Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/6/00 9:12 am
Ahh, a simple solution. Kill the puppy, diffuse the trigger. Now just how to get out of the room....

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2884 by DWalker911

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Message 2889 of 6726 Reply

Re: The Dog Kickers ubermosher63
(27/M/NJ, Exit 34) 9/6/00 10:27 am
Reminds me a game I ran where just for flavor I placed a cute cat curled up sleeping soundly on top of what appeared to be a spellbook. A wizard thought it would be funny to kick the cat off and take the book. I hadn't planned it at the time, but I didn't care for his action so all of a sudden the cute kitten's eyes glowed a luminescent green and rapidly 'morphed into a displacer beast... That player still gives me a look every time the party passes an alley cat.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2887 by lysasius

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Message 2890 of 6726 Reply

Re: The Dog Kickers Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/6/00 1:21 pm
Ahh... A good lesson to "messiah" about how to handle PCs whose actions you don't approve of.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2889 by ubermosher63

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Message 2891 of 6726 Reply

Rate of Fire Calitrojan
9/6/00 5:43 pm
Well I was reading through my new 3rd edition Player's Handbook (finally came in the mail yesterday!) and could not figure out the rate of fire for a bow. So what is it? 1 shot a round? I mean big whoop de do!

So what I am getting out of this is bows are cheaper, but most classes have to use a skill or feat to be able to use them, they cause less damage than a crossbow... though anyone can use those... but they don't create attacks of opportunity during reloading?

Is it jus tme or have they seriously diminished the appeal of the bow? Not that I am upset about this as I encourage my players to spring for that crossbow... as I long ago modified damages to give crossbows the advantage in that area. I am just astonished that they would take away ROF... I cannot find it anywhere.

This not only affects bows, but other ranged weapons as well, for instance no ROF is listed for thrown daggers, though in 2nd edition they were 2/1... same with knives and slings... well? What is up with this? Have I overlooked a passage or chart? Anyone?


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Message 2892 of 6726 Reply

Re: Rate of Fire tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/6/00 9:40 pm
>>Well I was reading through my new 3rd edition Player's Handbook (finally came in the mail yesterday!) and could not figure out the rate of fire for a bow. So what is it? 1 shot a round? I mean big whoop de do!<<

ROF with bows (except xbows) is the same as melee.

>>So what I am getting out of this is bows are cheaper, but most classes have to use a skill or feat to be able to use them, they cause less damage than a crossbow... though anyone can use those... but they don't create attacks of opportunity during reloading?<<

Bows have better crits and better ranges. They both create AoO while reloading AFAIK.

>>Is it jus tme or have they seriously diminished the appeal of the bow? Not that I am upset about this as I encourage my players to spring for that crossbow... as I long ago modified damages to give crossbows the advantage in that area. I am just astonished that they would take away ROF... I cannot find it anywhere.

This not only affects bows, but other ranged weapons as well, for instance no ROF is listed for thrown daggers, though in 2nd edition they were 2/1... same with knives and slings... well? What is up with this? Have I overlooked a passage or chart? Anyone? <<

Nope. Multi attack weapons are all the same now. Notice there are feats you can take to get more out of your bows and such. I think it's called Rapid Shot.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2891 by Calitrojan

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Message 2893 of 6726 Reply

Re: Rate of Fire Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/7/00 7:55 am
Yet more reasons for me to stay with 2nd Ed. : )

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2892 by tuffnoogies

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Message 2894 of 6726 Reply

Re: Rate of Fire ubermosher63
(27/M/NJ, Exit 34) 9/7/00 11:26 am
One thing to remember with regards to ROF and 3E is now a round is 6 seconds instead of 1 minute. Without the Rapid Shot Feat it is reasonable to only aim and fire one bow shot per round.

While we're on the subject of crossbows I was a little disappointed that 3E didn't incorporate as a standard rule the rules for crossbows they introduced in the Birthright Campaign setting (yes I was one of the 5 people who actually ran a Birthright campaign). Simply stated, in addition to higher damage rolls, crossbows had to-hit bonuses versus opponents wearing armor at short range to account for the fact that crossbows were designed to pierce armor. For example a heavy crossbow ignored 4 steps of armor class (effectively making it +4 to hit)at short range. An AC 2 fighter wearing plate was less likely to charge in the face of a barrage when he became AC 6.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2893 by Umbratikus

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Message 2895 of 6726 Reply

Introduction CZE_026
(33/M/IA) 9/7/00 1:10 pm
I am a new member (as of 5min ago). I have been playing AD&D since '79 or so, starting with the original PB D&D late in '77 (I was in Boy Scouts). I started GMing (we never used DM, as most of our adventures were sans labyrinths), and haven't looked back. I have played and GM'd many systems besides AD&D, and think variety and imagination are the spice of life.

Personally, I am a professional chemist, and an amateur artist and writer. Currently, I am working towards my second degree in fine arts and illustration.

I look forward to the potential of great discussions.


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Message 2896 of 6726 Reply

Re: Rate of Fire Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/7/00 2:37 pm
What exactly were the higher damage rolls for crossbows in Birthright?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2894 by ubermosher63

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Message 2897 of 6726 Reply

Third Edition - Opinions wanted! CZE_026
(33/M/IA) 9/7/00 2:41 pm
I have read through the new PHB and loosely polled people at rec.frp.misc, #ad&d and local gameshop players who playtested at GenCon. To be honest the reviews have been mixed. Only at #ad&d (irc) has the majority liked the change and seem to welcome the new addition. Everywhere else the majority don't think the changes really warranted a new edition, and many seem to think that 3rd ed. detracts from the nature of D&D. What are your opinions? I am trying to decide whether or not to invest/waste my money on yet another Ad&d rules set.

Later


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Message 2898 of 6726 Reply

Re: Introduction Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/7/00 2:41 pm
Welcome, CZE

We are alike in many ways. We started playing the game at about the same time (late '70s), and I too am an amateur artist and writer. I already have one of those degrees in fine arts, two of them actually, but they don't do me a damned bit of good. Good luck in your pursuits, though.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2895 by CZE_026

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Message 2899 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/7/00 2:45 pm
CZE, I suggest you read back through some of the recent posts, as we have been either extolling the virtues or ranting and raving about the 3rd ed. I personally think it is a decent system, but it ain't D&D. Too much of what made the game what it was is lost in the 3rd ed. But that, of course, is IMHO.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2897 by CZE_026

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Message 2900 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! CZE_026
(33/M/IA) 9/7/00 2:59 pm
I read the rather short thread "Back to 3rd Edition" but didn't seem to extoll everyones frustation.

Personally, I dislike the feats, finding them horribly unnecessary. Many other systems have work this concept to a much more playable and less intrusive fashion. I don't mind eliminating the race vs class limitations. I played around with them, depending on the world I was creating anyway. Dragon had some good suggestions for that for 1E. I found the swapping around of spells (zero level?) confusing and unnecessary. There were always cantrips iffin ya wanted zero level spells.

Well anyway, I digress.

CZE

disclaimer- The above statment is the opinion of the poster. It in no way represents the opinion of this club or it's affiliate members and organizations.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2899 by Umbratikus

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Message 2901 of 6726 Reply

Re: Introduction CZE_026
(33/M/IA) 9/7/00 3:02 pm
That is where being a card carrying chemist comes in handy. At least I won't starve

Ciao

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2898 by Umbratikus

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Message 2902 of 6726 Reply

Re: Introduction Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/7/00 4:00 pm
I know. I also have a computer degree, which also happens to reflect my current occupation.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2901 by CZE_026

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Message 2903 of 6726 Reply

In NeEd of A GAme FiXXxx........ pfclink
(26/M/Muskogee) 9/7/00 6:20 pm
I'm looking for a game to join in my area. I have about ten years experence gaming different systems and havent played in about five years. Help me.....If you need another player or DM/GM and live in Muskogee, OK. reply to this post. No Okie jokes please...
Well maybe a few.. :-)


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Message 2904 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/7/00 6:25 pm
>>Everywhere else the majority don't think the changes really warranted a new edition, and many seem to think that 3rd ed. detracts from the nature of D&D. What are your opinions? <<

Seems to me that these two opinions should be mutually exclusive.

I love 3E. But then I hated 1E/2E.

It's only $20. Loosen up the old purse strings and get yourself a copy. Make a few characters and run a few games. If you don't like it, sell it on eBay.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2897 by CZE_026

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Message 2905 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/7/00 6:33 pm
>>Too much of what made the game what it was is lost in the 3rd ed. But that, of course, is IMHO. <<

Not trying to start something here (but that's probably what'll happen), but what did they take away that was so core to 2E?

The only thing I've noticed missing that was signiature for 2E was arbitrary rules.

Just wondering.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2899 by Umbratikus

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Message 2906 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/7/00 6:39 pm
>>Personally, I dislike the feats, finding them horribly unnecessary. <<

They are neccessary though. They are the primary means for keeping Fighters and Humans on level with the other classes and races as far as power goes. Well, not "primary" for humans, but an important ingredient.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2900 by CZE_026

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Message 2907 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! Pyros36658
(19/M/Orlando) 9/7/00 9:59 pm
Man you guys need to wake up. 3ed edition is awsome. They cleaned up a lot of the rules nicely, balanced out the character classes, and even added a couple of new classes.
For those of you out there bashing it, you should at least run a game to try it first. From what all of you are saying it sounds like you havn't even ran a game yet.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2906 by tuffnoogies

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Message 2908 of 6726 Reply

Re: Rate of Fire ubermosher63
(27/M/NJ, Exit 34) 9/7/00 11:32 pm
Umbratikus,
The damage rolls were
Light: 1d6+1/1d8+1
Heavy: 1d8+1/1d10+1

Also I misquoted the armor piercing bonus: both light and heavy ignore 5 steps of armor class due to armor at short range and 2 steps at medium.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2896 by Umbratikus

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Message 2909 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! Shabooah
(20/M/Fayetteville, Arkansas) 9/8/00 3:02 am
to be honest, i hated e3.. until i played it. things seem to flow more smoothly, but then again with one book it's hard to have a lot of contradictions and errata.
and another thing: everyone keeps saying "it's not ad&d anymore" and they're right.. adjust your expectations, and think back to original, unmodified, mystara based d&d.. in my opinion third edition recaptures some of the flavor of the original. without losing much of the high polish of ad&d.
then again, from a game mechanics perspective it's covered in tangy Gamma World sauce.

it seems to me that wizards has released a (pr. if no other variety) monster, and it's actually a rather agreeable little fellow.
as has been said before by others and later by myself, the only way to know is to try, and as always, it's just not sensible to have an uninformed opinion.

(contrary to by now certain popular opinion, i am not an employee of wizards, as far as i know. is i am, where's my paycheck, eh?)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2907 by Pyros36658

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Message 2910 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 9/8/00 4:58 am
Firstly, the only "new" class (as far as I can tell, I don't have the books yet, but have done fairly extensive e-research) is Sorceror, everything else is just bringing back old ones (sometimes watered down, sometimes beefed up)

Secondly, the "it's not really D&D (or AD&D, etc.)" was the hue and cry eleven years ago when 2nd Edition was released (what do you mean you just rolled up a bard? specialist mages? specialist priests?) and now, after milking a generation for all it was worth in costly compendiums, 'complete' books, etc. (very few of which were very profitable) while another generation of die-hards continue to use their orange-spined 1st ed. books (I still know of several groups that play "old school", including my original group). Some will like it (3e), some won't. Will it alienate some players? Yes. Is it good for the game as an institution? Yes, I think so, just as 2nd Edition was.

Thirdly, whether or not it is still "really" Dungeons and Dragons is up to the DM and the Players, and not the rules they use. Most of the opinions here and elsewhere say that it has simplified combat (good, because the mechanics of combat is NOT what a role-playing game should be about), made spell-casting more flexible (which has been the basis of volumes of house rules), and made the whole system more affordable to new players.

Finally, when I do come to the states in December, I will buy all three books, piss off my wife by reading them in every second of spare time I have, and develop real, useful opinions based upon the actual books and rules and changes, and decide whether or not to play them. (Although I already have some good ideas about how to use some of the changes .. prestige classes .. I LIKE that idea.)

s/g

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2909 by Shabooah

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Message 2911 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/8/00 8:41 am
>>I love 3E. But then I hated 1E/2E.

Then why did you play?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2904 by tuffnoogies

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Message 2912 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/8/00 9:36 am
>>but what did they take away that was so core to 2E?

The main thing they took away was the class/race restrictions, which really defined a great deal in the AD&D milieu. It helped dictate the "flavor" of every "standard" AD&D campaign. Granted, you could adopt the 3e rules and keep the class/race restrictions as a house rule.

>>For those of you out there bashing it, you should at least run a game to try it first. From what all of you are saying it sounds like you havn't even ran a game yet.

Actually I am not really bashing it, but you are right, I have not run a 3e game yet. I haven't even read the PH. I think a lot of the game mechanics in 3e are great, and I also like the idea of prestige classes. I also think Monte Cook, one of the chief designers behind 3e, is the best WoC has. I know the material is good. All I am saying is that I am 100% satisfied with my 2e game the way it is, and so are my players (or so they say). Why fork out another $60+ and go through all the effort of learning the new system, converting my campaign world, and creating a whole new set of house rules? Especially when my group can get together, at best, for a weekend every other month. I still plan on getting the new PH to check it out, but I'm sure many of you can understand my hesitations.

It reminds me, though, of back in the old days, when 1e was new. The excitement I had when a new book came out "Dieties and Demigods, cool!" My friends and I would race to see who would be the first one to get it. But if you think that 3e isn't going to bombard the market with 3e supplements and other materials over the next few years, just like they did with 2e, you're dreaming.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2905 by tuffnoogies

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Message 2913 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! CZE_026
(33/M/IA) 9/8/00 10:01 am
I don't wish to be mis-interpreted. I have read the PHB, but not joined a game yet (actually haven't even heard of one yet in my area). I like some of the mechanics, and yes some of it does have a "Gamma World" feel. But, (you knew that was coming didn't ya?) it seems they modified it beyond traditional AD&D. At least with 2E ( I wasn't aware there was a controversy over 2E. Over the sale to WotC but not 2E), the changes were mostly from supplimental from Dragon and other sources. 1E and 2E were interchangeable.

Yes there are some rules that are in 1E and 2E that I don't like. Not that they are bad mechanically, but don't fit into my world view or the game feel that I was looking for. But the myriad of RPG based literature and my own vivid imagination provided countless solution to these dilemas. That is the nature of the game.

Will the market be flooded with 3E supplemental material? Certainly. Will it bother me? No, I don't purchase the supplements or modules. I prefer to use my own imagination. If I want to be in someone else's fantasy, I will play in their game.

It took me a long time to by 2E, I was a die hard 1E player and GM. We were satisfied with the way the game flowed and the various house rules used to meld the core system into our fantasy creations.

Perhaps, they sould have marketed 3E as a 1E of its own system. A universal d20 gaming engine. That is what they seem to be going for anyway.

CZE

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2912 by Umbratikus

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Message 2914 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! ubermosher63
(27/M/NJ, Exit 34) 9/8/00 10:40 am
<>

That is very much what they are going for. In the back of the latest Dragon Magazine is an ad for WotC's new Star Wars Role-Playing game. And they highlight the fact that it will be using the d20 system, and they mention the use of feats as well. I believe that the term "3rd Edition" is very much a marketing term more than anything. After all what would sell more: D&D 3rd Edition or WotC Fantasy RPG 1st edition? And what better platform to launch a new generation of RPG's with a common system than with D&D?

That being said I still love it. I just ran my 3rd session using 3E last night and now that my group and I are getting the hang of it, its strengths are really showing through. And as for whether or not it is AD&D, well to me the essence has always been in the roleplaying and the stories, and the games we've played so far are very much D&D. I've played with enough groups that learning this new system is akin to learning a new group's house rules and style.

With that I yield the soap box...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2913 by CZE_026

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Message 2915 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! CZE_026
(33/M/IA) 9/8/00 1:59 pm
If it were marketing, then they should have used Magic: The RPG. After all that ccg has out sold D&D hands down.

Frankly, it seems to me more "out with the old. . .in with the new" WotC didn't create D&D, but seem to give the illusion that they did.

I think that is great that Wizards want's to create a FRPG and it is great that they want to support D&D. But these events are mutually exclusive. AD&D is more that a FRPG, there are literally hundreds of those. Even some good freebies. AD&D is a system of mechanics that fell within a certain range of statistical probability. Not everyone agrees with the mechanism. That is why there are some many different RPGs. But that mechanism was indicitive of AD&D. Period.

Next soapboxer please step forward

CZE

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2914 by ubermosher63

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Message 2916 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 9/8/00 5:21 pm
I couldn't care less about 3e! I have tons of 1st and 2nd ed books. I dont have the money to spring for a s**tload of new books. I believe that too much time is being spent in this club talking about what edition everyone is playing. DMing is an activity that crosses all boundaries of play and I'm tired of hearing about this topic.

The Cpl

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2897 by CZE_026

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Message 2917 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown cplchaotic
(29/M/Wheeling, WV) 9/8/00 5:26 pm
I'm not sure if I'm the first one to say this, but
maybe you need a Beavis and Butthead campaign.
Suggestions are: 1. Find new, mature players or
2. Make a new immature campaign. or 3. Make a campaign where the players are members of a thieves guild or other unlawful organization. They can concentrate on breaking stuff, stealing things or getting drunk and peeing on one another.

The Cpl

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2849 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2918 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/8/00 5:39 pm
Tell it from the mountain, brother. I've tried to talk them into taking it to any of the wonderful new groups springing up dedicated to talking about it, but they have this incredible urge to discuss it here, too. Sometimes I can't tell to which group I am talking.

This is the Dungeon Master's Guild. In the players' guild, that AD & D group, they talk about it all the time. By coming to our mailboxes, they force us into their discussions, then piss and moan because we're there..lol.. and I refuse to not receive mail. Something really cool might and has come along.

What matters is what you do, not how you do it. We are Dungeon Masters. The lives of our PCs rests softly in our hands. Surely others of you have enjoyed the soft squish of the player in your hands.... mwaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. The version is irrelevent, and the rest of us would prefer talk about the game.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2916 by cplchaotic

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Message 2919 of 6726 Reply

Re: A DM on the brink of a breakdown Shabooah
(20/M/Fayetteville, Arkansas) 9/8/00 5:47 pm
interesting idea.. D&D B&BE... an MTV/WoC collaberation.. nahh, too many abbreviations.
then again, who wouldn't love a story xp bonus for setting something on fire?
i'll take a Bat of Frog Baseball +3, thank you.

"i hear if you drink a potion, you get a wicked buzz, huh huh huh"

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2917 by cplchaotic

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Message 2920 of 6726 Reply

Killin' Characters leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/8/00 6:48 pm
The Eyes of Gold, the Eyes of Death.

I've only done it with a split up party, i.e. 1 or 2 characters. Keeps down the brain-stormin'..;)

You find yourselves on top of a great, square column. You can see forever down the sides, a slight mist and, well, darkness, taking care of anything further. The column is 10' square. You notice, about 6' away from and next to your column, another column of the same dimensions. In fact, it appears that you stand on one square of a huge grid of columns. A voice whispers in your head, 'use the eyes of gold.'


The trick is most of the columns are illusionary. There is one way to find this out before jumping to it. You must throw a gold coin, anything gold will work in a pinch. Anything else, including spells, will treat the columns as real. Gold will pass right through them.

Dungeon Master: 2
Players: 0...lol...

One disregarded the riddle entirely, and just lept to his death. Another contemplated the riddle for awhile, ended up disregarding it, and jumping to his death. Note: a thief and a fighter - no true seeing devices were available.

Of course, they didn't really die, but they failed the tests in a most painful way.. And woe is he who doesn't have several of his gold coins.. handy..


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Message 2921 of 6726 Reply

Anyone want the Wizard Spell Compendiums BrohnW
(22/M/Portland OR) 9/8/00 7:05 pm
If so contact me cause i have finished all 3 books. The spells are sitting here in my computer and i dont want all the work i did go to waste. if any of the DMs out there still play 2nd Edition then contact me and we can talk about it. Anyway E-mail me at BrohnW@yahoo.com and ill get back to you about it. BROHN


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Message 2922 of 6726 Reply

Re: Anyone want the Wizard Spell Compend Rogue_Dogg
(19/M/Chaos Realm Portal, Orego) 9/8/00 7:26 pm
Snootchie Bootchie..... id love that!!!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2921 by BrohnW

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Message 2923 of 6726 Reply

Re: Anyone want the Wizard Spell Compend Shabooah
(20/M/Fayetteville, Arkansas) 9/8/00 8:34 pm
hey man, you can never have too many spells. my email is in my profile.. count me in.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2921 by BrohnW

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Message 2924 of 6726 Reply

Edition-irrelevant Club Question shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 9/8/00 9:47 pm
Whats the most useful (or drastic, silly, uncomprehensible, abused, etc.) house rule you have ever used (or was used by another DM you played with)?


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Message 2925 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/8/00 10:49 pm
>>>>I love 3E. But then I hated 1E/2E.

Then why did you play?<<

Who said I did?

Actually, I did. But only because I was raised on 1E and when 2E came out it was natural to switch to it. After awhile all the arbitrary and contradictory rules started to bug me so I switched to GURPS just before the PO books came out.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2911 by Umbratikus

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Message 2926 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition - Opinions wanted! tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/8/00 10:52 pm
>>The main thing they took away was the class/race restrictions, which really defined a great deal in the AD&D milieu. It helped dictate the "flavor" of every "standard" AD&D campaign. Granted, you could adopt the 3e rules and keep the class/race restrictions as a house rule.<<

Huh. Had a feeling that's what you'd say.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2912 by Umbratikus

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Message 2927 of 6726 Reply

Re: Edition-irrelevant Club Question tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/8/00 11:31 pm
>>Whats the most useful (or drastic, silly, uncomprehensible, abused, etc.) house rule you have ever used (or was used by another DM you played with)? <<

I played in a game once where the player that dealt the final blow to the monster got a token. At the end of the session the tokens were turned in for extra xp. It really sucked being the guy that wittled the monster down with a dozen hits doing dozens of hp damage and then some dork finally manages to hit once with his dagger killing it.

Not to mention it was drastically unfair to mages.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2924 by shinto_gaijin

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Message 2928 of 6726 Reply

Lurkers needed pfclink
(26/M/Muskogee) 9/9/00 11:47 am
Anyone interested in "watching" a play by eMail RPG? Check out Thunder Canyon and Brawling Blades. Both are very well done and quite enjoyable to lurk on. Brawling Blades is always looking for more combatants.

Thunder Canyon

http://members.xoom.com/IamMisko/Thunder_Canyon/index.htm

Brawling Blades

http://members.amethyst-alliance.com/arena/Brawling_Blades/Throne_Room.htm


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Message 2929 of 6726 Reply

3E DM's Guide prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/9/00 4:22 pm
I got the 3E DM's Guide today. If you can't wait until Monday, when you can get your own, direct your questions to

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild

I'll tell you what the Book of Power reveals.


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Message 2930 of 6726 Reply

Re: Anyone want the Wizard Spell Compend glenromero
(30/M/Honolulu, HI) 9/9/00 10:22 pm
Please send them my way. My E-mail is glenromero@yahoo.com.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2921 by BrohnW

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Message 2931 of 6726 Reply

New Member/Old DM shademoon47714
(35/M/Evansville, IN) 9/10/00 12:14 am
I've been playing and DM'ing for almost 20 years. Of all the different versions dating back to the old "blue box" edition, this new one seems the most complete update. Of course, only time will tell; however, I like the any race, any class rules.


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Message 2932 of 6726 Reply

Re: The Dog Kickers madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 9/10/00 3:53 pm
Sorry to reply so late but I was in no-phone land.

The simple solution isn't quite so simple. To quote DWalker911:

"Step 1: Kill cute puppy dog.
Step 2: Kill bad-@ss monsters.
Step 3: Kill dog kickers"

The puppy is dead after one or two kicks but that doesn't stop the stupid and single-minded kickers. I guess I could have used a ball but I wanted to see the looks of horror on my players' faces. The chain was also nearly unbreakable.

The players actually used a similar solution though: 1) Pin the puppy. Steps 2 & 3 remain the same. I thought they might sidestep the unbreakable chain by "breaking the puppy" but nobody was that heartless.

-Scott

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2884 by DWalker911

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Message 2933 of 6726 Reply

World/culture building Shabooah
(20/M/Fayetteville, Arkansas) 9/10/00 3:56 pm
right now i'm in the process of building a relatively small planet. as it is i'd like to create it complete, in a rough outline, but with definite ideas as to the general scheme. travel will be fairly easy by ship, lots of islands between major land masses.

right now i'm trying to think of interesting ideas for cultures, and for interesting dynamics between them. if anyone has interesting suggestions (or anything, since inspiration can come from nearly anything) feel free to share.
if nothing else, this should be an interesting brainstorming excercise for the club.

shabooah


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Message 2934 of 6726 Reply

Re: Killin' Characters madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 9/10/00 4:01 pm
Cool encounter, Lee. Wouldn't work with my current party though. Pesky random wand list. Now the Ranger has a wand of levitation (command word activated because I'm nice). However, the Ranger's player has recently announced the looming death/retirement of his character so that he can play a new monster PC (a lizard-folk druid). Gravity is mine to control again. Muhuhaha...

What would help though (since everyone likes death more than retirement anyway) is a few choice new ideas on how to kill him off...

-Scott

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2920 by leeok31

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Message 2935 of 6726 Reply

Re: 3E DM's Guide madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 9/10/00 4:04 pm
"Other secrets are becoming available there too," the hooded rogue gesticulates in the signs of Theives' Cant.

(sorry Proxiluna, not trying to preempt you, just share my fortune)

-Scott

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2929 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2936 of 6726 Reply

Re: Killin' Characters mattbcieri
(28/M/Upper Darby PA) 9/10/00 5:06 pm
A player who wants to retire / kill off his character, wants to go out in a blaze of glory.

Make it a spectacular death, one that will be talked about by the folk of the campaign for years.

An idea is an impossible situation. One in which the players are charges with protecting something or someone who some greater power wants dead or destroyed.

The trick here is that only the death of someone will cause the greater power to be appeased. So your character with the death wish, can sacrifice him / herself and still save the day.

Another heroic end. the party is working against time. And are beset upon by a hord. (This works well in a dungeon. The character with the death wish can stay back and hold off the hord. (perhaps fighting through a doorway or similar portal that only allows for a fer to be engaged at a time, while the resr of the party takes care of business.

How about mass destruction. An artifact that must be destroyed cna be thrown into an active volcano. Unfortunately it will errupt when this happens.

Just remember the blaze of glory. The death must serve the greater 'good' of the party or gorup that the party is working for.


Matt

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2934 by madpoet418

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Message 2937 of 6726 Reply

campaign troubles Calitrojan
9/10/00 8:05 pm
Well, if you will recall my players are after some bandits and I was going to unleash a great evil... or rather have the PC's do it.

Well they got into the dungeon and picked up one of the seals... the final seal as it was (there were a few others they could have gotten, but they hightailed it out of the dungeon before they could find them.)

Anyway, they took an exceptionally long time to get to and throught he dungeon... so according to my town reconstruction time table the town's stockade has been fully completed... and I was not wanting to yet reveal that there is an insider in the town ready to open the gates for the bandits to attack again.

so, the question is, how do I get the party out and after the bandits? I am willing to reveal the insider, but would rather not until they get up another level. The bandits are hiding out in an abandonend keep on the coast... and hav ebeen joined up by the remains of a goblin tribe.


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Message 2938 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 9/10/00 10:19 pm
Well, one of the most common cultures will be a fishing-based society, since I'm sure there're races that would feed of the spoils of the sea.

Try spins on the common races! Maybe aquatic dwarfs and halflings. Tree-dwelling humans and savage, tribal elves that are headhunters or something.

Mix and match the cultures with the opposites of their traditional game stereotypes. Give your PCs something new to deal with.

But definitely a few cultures that revolve around the sea!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2933 by Shabooah

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Message 2939 of 6726 Reply

Re: POLL: cost of XP in GP rythter
(31/M/Braintree, MA) 9/11/00 12:10 am
Now that I understand your question more clearly, and in light of the xp cost involved in the creation of some items, I would say that the cost would have to be at least 10 gp and more likely about 50 - 100 gp.

My reasoning is based on the fact that you cannot get xp from gp in my worlds, and the $ equivalent would need to be greater than 1/1.

With the $ you get from the exchange of your lifeforce you could mount an expedition, hire adventurers to go get some great item for you, etc.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2875 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2940 of 6726 Reply

Re: Rate of Fire rythter
(31/M/Braintree, MA) 9/11/00 12:20 am
Just my opinion, but I never felt the 2nd Edition worth buying. Almost everything in it was covered elsewhere (Unearthed Arcana, Dragon Magazine, etc)

The third edition adds new ideas and rules, and more concisely covers things like to hit/armor class and saving throws.

I am happy with the new rules and hope to be able to convince the other players in my group to adopt most if not all of the new rules as soon as possible.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2893 by Umbratikus

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Message 2941 of 6726 Reply

Free Downloads Now Available Dragonwulf_1
9/11/00 3:05 am
For those who don't already know WotC has put up the first batch of free Forgotten Realms downloads. More are scheduled to go up Sept. 13.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnDDownloads_classics.asp#FRDL

Some are having trouble downloading. Though I'm getting them, it's going slow (old machine;~P)

There is a note that says:

"NOTE: these files are ZIP compressed and require a browser to be able to launch another browser window to begin the download."

Dragonwulf


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Message 2942 of 6726 Reply

Re: campaign troubles shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 9/11/00 5:31 am
>> how do I get the party out and after the bandits?

In a word: information. There are a few ways to introduce it:
- Have the party come across a crude map to the keep (maybe after defeating or running off a scouting party for the bandits or a couple of the bandits sneaking into town to meet with their informant)
- Rumors about "someone just moved into the old keep"
- A traitor (may turn out to be a double agent) willing to trade for information (or mis-information)

s/g

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2937 by Calitrojan

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Message 2943 of 6726 Reply

Re: Anyone want the Wizard Spell Compend Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/11/00 8:30 am
Brohn,
My email is in my profile. Love to have more spells. Thanks.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2921 by BrohnW

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Message 2944 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/11/00 8:47 am
Real world cultures are fun to adapt to AD&D. Truth is, after all, stranger than fiction. I recently adapted Peru's "Cloud People" to the far reaches of my campaign world, although they are extinct, their cliffside tombs and circular mountaintop huts are found consistently by PC explorers. They also left behind strange magic and nasty undead guardians. Fun.

Another idea is to take a minor race from any of the monster books, and turning it into a major race controlling its own kingdom/territory. The World Builder's Guidebook suggested this. Some time ago I had world where my PC's were stranded during a Spelljamming campaign. This world, based on an old Judges Guild product, was ruled by somewhat civilized lizard men. It made for really interesting dynamics.

Do you have the old 1st ed. Fiend Folio? I used the Qullan from that book, and turned it into a savage race of humans that ruled the jungle continent to the south. I've even been toying with making it available as a "kit" for PCs.

I also have a chain of islands ruled by an Amazonian matricarchal culture, where the few men who exist there, exist as slaves. They are warlike and strong, but usually very "accommodating" to traveling males and their priestesses have spells that ensure the gender of their offspring is female.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2933 by Shabooah

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Message 2945 of 6726 Reply

Re: Free Downloads Now Available Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/11/00 8:55 am
Speaking of WotC downloads, has anyone downloaded their new D&D screensaver? Thumbs Up!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2941 by Dragonwulf_1

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Message 2946 of 6726 Reply

Re: campaign troubles Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/11/00 9:03 am
Gaijin's last suggestion is a good one: having a bandit traitor leak the info to the PCs, or to the town's ruling body, who then leaks it to the PCs. The traitor could be a racist berk who can't stand working with those "filthy goblins."

Alternately, the informant could be an escaped prisoner, a merchant from that town that was captured by the bandits and managed to escape.

Perhaps the keep wasn't abandoned after all. Perhaps it was inhabited by a hermit hedge wizard or something, who managed to escape the bandits' detection, and made his way to the town looking for help, or just wanting to tell somebody.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2937 by Calitrojan

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Message 2947 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building mattbcieri
(28/M/Upper Darby PA) 9/11/00 1:34 pm
You have the whole of human history to draw upon!!! Think of any of the cultures in antiquity, up through the dark ages or even our modern times.

Watch historical documentaries for ideas. Ir just wing it. make a list of 10 to 20 cultures you know really well, then make a list of the races, and even add a few for more flavor, add lizardmen, draconians, lava newts, etc.

then roll dice for each list, if it is something you like run with it, if not roll again.

Matt

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2944 by Umbratikus

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Message 2948 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 9/11/00 2:40 pm
I began creation on my own world a few years ago and one of the first cultures that I created for the world was three separate tribes of barbarians that were all descended from the same tribe. One tribe lived in the mountains, plains, and one was a fising/raiding culture. The original tribe started as a fishing/raiding culture. I can't remember off the top of my head what the reason for the split was, but I haven't finished the world yet and have been playing in FR as my campaing world. I have been getting the itch to start my own world though and may just begin working on it again.
I also came up with a clan of wild elves that inhabit a huge salt marsh/swamp on the lower peninsula of the main continent. They live in huts on stilts and travel by canoe and are fairly uncivilized. They have shamans and witchdoctors for their clerics and mages and are highly superstisious of all outsiders, even other elves.
There is also an elven island off the northern coast that is basically a japanese culture. The thought of an elven ninja clan sounded kind of cool to me and dangerous. I was toying with the idea of having them attain varied spell powers with higher training (similar to what the ninjas in mortal combat have, except not as potent).
The whole world still needs some work, but I do remember that I had finished an entire pantheon of human deities and several of the main continents cultures and even some of the royal lineage and their relations with other countries. It still is far from being finished though. It is a monumental task building something like this from scratch, at least if you want it to be done right and seem logical. For ideas all you need do is look through some world history books. There is plenty cultures that have come and went that are very interesting, it just takes time to research them and then incorporate them into your campaign and maybe give it a fantasy twist.

Good Luck!!!

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2933 by Shabooah

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Message 2949 of 6726 Reply

World building and RPG system CZE_026
(33/M/IA) 9/12/00 10:00 am
All this talk of world building, got me wondering. Over the ~21 years of Gamemastering, I have created several gaming "worlds", varying in complexity. But in every case and genre, my creation was system neutral. Often, I have has several games going in the same world, with different game engines for each party.

How do the rest of you GM/DM's accommodate systems into your creations?

CZE


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Message 2950 of 6726 Reply

Re: World building and RPG system leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/12/00 10:08 am
I only play one system..

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2949 by CZE_026

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Message 2951 of 6726 Reply

Re: World building and RPG system Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/12/00 10:18 am
Game mechanics and world geography exist totally independent of each other. You can theoretically use any game engine with any geographic entity. It is in the "soft stuff" where things might conflict. Conventions used in the game, like available races, character classes and race/class limitations might dictate certain societal norms. Available technology in the game system being used could impact the workings of the world; i.e. a world with gunpowder would be different than a world without gunpowder, a world employing spelljamming technology would be different from a world not employing that technology, etc. Is the game system prone to high magic or low magic? This could make a big difference on the campaign world. These are just a few examples.

If you are just talking mechanics, well, that's a different story. You can virtually adapt any game engine into your campaign world. However, I have always used the AD&D system for FRP, so I haven't had to make any adaptations.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2949 by CZE_026

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Message 2952 of 6726 Reply

Re: World building and RPG system CZE_026
(33/M/IA) 9/12/00 11:39 am
I posed this question, since many of the commercial worlds are built around the system, which, by my way of thinking, limits the creative process and the strains the fabric of fantasy.

It is true, that some homebrew rules had to be made to adapt any FRPG to my worlds, because my imagination does not fall confine itself to rigid rules and structure. But one of the joys of AD&D (1E and 2E) and Rolemaster (the two systems I use most 50(ad&D):40 (RM) : 10 (other)) is the ease that house rules can be added without detracting from the core mechanic. Races tend to be the most difficult to add/subtract/adapt to any game engine.

About the only commercial "world" I felt satisfied with was "Ravenloft." The depth of detail was intense. I only wished they hadn't forced tradition swords and sorcery weopons and details into a wonderfully gothic world. The best games we had was with a GM that adapted the world to "Chill" and "It came from the Late, Late, Late show." He also used WoD, but I wasn't participating in those games.

All of the other commercial products I have perused felt too much like a realy bad Middle Earth Clone. I must confess to creating a bad ME clone myself a time or two, but those were only for one or two session game, and not for long term campaigning.

CZE

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2951 by Umbratikus

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Message 2953 of 6726 Reply

Re: World building and RPG system Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/12/00 12:52 pm
I fell in love with the World of Greyhawk when it was first released (in folio form) back in the 80s. It was the first I had ever seen of a cohesive campaign world. Our meagre game world we had used up until then suffered by comparison.

I also loved the Forgotten Realms when it was nothing more than a backdrop to Ed Greenwoods articles in Dragon Magazine, but once it was released commercially, I was disappointed in it and it lost it's appeal.

I also had a short love affair with Harn, from Columbia Games.

I really enjoyed the Planescape campaign and I proceded to scarf up just about every PS product produced. It's only drawback for me was its inclusion of real-world mythologies, where I have always favored purely fantastic ones.

I first designed my current game world in the late 80s, but am tiring somewhat of it. My biggest beef with my current world is it's geographic inconsistencies. Deserts appear where they are geographically unlikely, rivers run the wrong way, mountains appear out of nowhere with no geological reason for them. Of course all of this could be explained away with magic, but that is a cop out. I am torn between editing the world to satisfy my apparent need to align my world with real life natural science, or create a new one using some of Profantasy's nifty software tools. The prospect of designing a new campaign world from scratch after all of these years is an appealing one, but my current one is so rich with the histories of campaigns past that I hate to abandon it.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2952 by CZE_026

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Message 2954 of 6726 Reply

Re: World building and RPG system ubermosher63
(27/M/NJ, Exit 34) 9/12/00 2:48 pm
Umbratikus
I've been building on my campaign world now for several years, and am still in love with it (I wonder if that means I'm narcissistic?). Its has a bit of a Tolkien and Robert Jordanesque hook to it but is otherwise original. I found myself chuckling on your comments about random deserts and rivers... I started this game world when I was in college and for a couple of semesters I was a Geography minor. Creating a realistic campaign world was the biggest benefit of that education.

Speaking of ProFantasy, has anyone used Campaign Cartographer 2? I've been playing with Campaing Mapper in the Core Rules 2.0 software and am considering the upgrade. I would love to hear input on the product first.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2953 by Umbratikus

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Message 2955 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building Shabooah
(20/M/Fayetteville, Arkansas) 9/12/00 3:05 pm
one culture that i've decided i'll definitely be adding is something akin to pre-colombian Aztecs. the decision was clinched after reading Gary Jennings's Aztec, an incredible piece of historical fiction. i highly recommend it, both as a wonderful book, and as a great source of material for a game setting.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2948 by Jiriki13

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Message 2956 of 6726 Reply

Re: World building and RPG system Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/12/00 3:11 pm
Well, that's just it. I developed the bulk of the my campaign world before I paid much attention to real world issues like geography, natural population centers, etc. That is why I want to change it. Despite years of campaigning in my world, there is much I could change that the players wouldn't even notice, because their characters have never ventured into those parts of the world, or the fact that they wouldn't necessarily remember if there was a river here, or which direction that river was running last time they crossed it. I think I could edit it sufficiently, but it would be much easier to start from scratch.

FYI, my campaign is based on 9-12c feudal Western Europe, with the edition of magic, and, yes, some Tolkien (but no halflings). I also include a little of the Spelljammer and Planescape campaigns in my game. I think that works very nicely as a cohesive whole.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2954 by ubermosher63

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Message 2957 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building ubermosher63
(27/M/NJ, Exit 34) 9/12/00 3:58 pm
Shabooah,
You should try to get your hands on the old FR Maztica campaign expansion boxed set (I have one somewhere in my dusty Attic of Holding). Granted its 1E rules but its also a very interesting game source for that culture.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2955 by Shabooah

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Message 2958 of 6726 Reply

Aztecs SCA_Bard
(23/F/Barony of Storvick) 9/12/00 4:07 pm
Funny they should come up... my new jungle pygmies (actually primitive gnomes, but the party doesn't know that) just debuted. A PC killed a fireball-wielding mage (also a PC, but well... ) and the pygmies have decided he's an avatar of their protector-god. (He's an ogre, too, so he even looks a bit like a giant gnome - even if he doens't have the jaguar head).

So they leave tribute, including a little pygmy heart for the Great One to chow down on.

One of the PC priests gets to talking to them (via magic) and they're convinced *he's* an incarnation of another god (conjuring things from thin air and all). So of course the first thing he does is give them three bottles of mead...

Now he's planning on converting them all to his faith, the *real* dieties are taking notice, and the pygmies are thinking of celebrating their blessings by attacking another pygmy tribe (which the pacificist priest will absolutely *hate*). Not to mention the fact that his goddess will be absolutely livid if she notices the little fellows worshipping idols in the shape of her priest...

I love my job.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2957 by ubermosher63

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Message 2959 of 6726 Reply

Re: World building and RPG system ubermosher63
(27/M/NJ, Exit 34) 9/12/00 4:09 pm
Umbratikus,
Yes, I agree that it would be easier to start anew. Plus creating a new world is always a great sparkplug for the creative juices. Just a warning though, realism comes with a price. I can't tell you how many times I found myself cursing myself to being a slave to plate tectonics and prevalent climes due to air and water currents. But at least you always have the fantastic as your "just because" ace in the hole.

Other than the Birthright world of Cerillia (sp?) I haven't run any other commercial worlds. But as you illustrated I do love to "cut & paste", borrowing from FR, Birthright, and even a little Dragonlance (nothing like a good tinker gnome here and there to strike fear into the heart of that lvl 10 Paladin)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2956 by Umbratikus

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Message 2960 of 6726 Reply

Re: Aztecs ubermosher63
(27/M/NJ, Exit 34) 9/12/00 4:11 pm
< >>

Yeah Dm'ing would be so much easier if it weren't for those pesky PC's ;)

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2958 by SCA_Bard

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Message 2961 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building Shabooah
(20/M/Fayetteville, Arkansas) 9/12/00 7:23 pm
i've heard of maztica, but never seen it. i might have to check ebay..
regardless of edition, a setting is a setting, and inspiration is definitely the same animal regardless of any rules. i tried looking through my old Hollow World stuff, but the Azcans were the typical grotesque caricature of the noble Aztecs. that's sad to me..

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2957 by ubermosher63

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Message 2962 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building dragn_lady
(33/F/Fitchburg, MA) 9/13/00 1:42 am
I have to say, you might even check out tag/yard sales if you have them in your area. I was able to get a first edition DMG for $3 at a tag sale, and the book is in MINT condition. I also got a first edition phb for $4.

I have the mentioned box set for Maztica, but I got that at a toy/hobby store on clearance for $2! Sadly, the store is now gone, and they also had the best collection of D&D products around. The two gaming "dens" we have around here are gearing more now towards Magic:The gathering and other such stuff, away from AD&D.

If anyone knows of places in or around Massachussetts that cater to us die hard AD&D players, please let me know.

Ciao...........

Dragn

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2961 by Shabooah

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Message 2963 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building ubermosher63
(27/M/NJ, Exit 34) 9/13/00 10:30 am
I enjoyed it but never had any player interest in that kind of period campaign so it basically became just DM edification & stuck in a remote and unknown corner of my game world just waiting to be unleashed one day. However I do believe that it would be of great interest to you. Perhaps Wizards.com will post it as a free download one day as they did for The North FR box set.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2961 by Shabooah

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Message 2964 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/13/00 4:09 pm
>>i've heard of maztica, but never seen it. i might have to check ebay..
regardless of edition, a setting is a setting, and inspiration is definitely the same animal regardless of any rules. i tried looking through my old Hollow World stuff, but the Azcans were the typical grotesque caricature of the noble Aztecs. that's sad to me.. <<

You might want to check out GURPS Aztecs also.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2961 by Shabooah

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Message 2965 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building Ima_Doppleganger
9/13/00 5:44 pm
You might want to read the Forgotten Realms trilogy as well. There are some problems with it, but you can get a feel of how the setting relates to AD&D. Ima

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2955 by Shabooah

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Message 2966 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building Shabooah
(20/M/Fayetteville, Arkansas) 9/13/00 5:58 pm
>>You might want to check out GURPS Aztecs also.<<
that sounds good.. from what i've heard GURPS goes into a lot (if at times excessive) detail. i didn't know they did an Aztec book or whatever though. is it still in print?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2964 by tuffnoogies

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Message 2967 of 6726 Reply

Very usefull orgruff
(32/M/Adelaide, Australia) 9/13/00 9:50 pm
Hey guys, check oput this site for generating random NPC's, villages, names ect.
I have found it to be one of the most usefull game mastering tools arround.

http://spitfire.ausys.se/johan/

Go to the cave, you will not regret it

Orgruff


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Message 2968 of 6726 Reply

Re: Very usefull Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/14/00 8:19 am
orgruff,

This is a great site. I use it the NPC generator all the time for generating thieves guilds, town guards, ship crews, tavern patrons, etc. Check out the club's links section. I added the link to the NPC generator some time ago. I had never seen the village genreator. Much neater than IGs. If you have never been to that site, it is worth checking out too http://www.irony.com/webtools.html

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2967 by orgruff

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Message 2969 of 6726 Reply

Re: World/culture building tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/14/00 4:43 pm
>>that sounds good.. from what i've heard GURPS goes into a lot (if at times excessive) detail. i didn't know they did an Aztec book or whatever though. is it still in print? <<

I don't think so. You can try on eBay though.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2966 by Shabooah

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Message 2970 of 6726 Reply

Re: Killin' Characters madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 9/14/00 4:55 pm
Thanks for the great ideas Matt. I was looking for something fresh, that's why I asked in the club and you have provided some great inspiration.

The player who is killing off his PC has decided to wait one more session so that he can start a new character at level three (the average party level will be three once they each get about 700 more xp). That gives me plenty of time to set up the "blaze of glory".

I really like the volcano idea. There is a volcano on the island where the PCs are adventuring and I have glorious visions of the chase flow chart that would capture the adrenaline-soaked nightmare of an elven ranger fleeing rivers of lava.

-Scott

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2936 by mattbcieri

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Message 2971 of 6726 Reply

Mad As A Hatter messiah_of_metal
(18/M/FL) 9/14/00 5:14 pm
I dunno why im asking this, but can anyone think of a campaine idea that deals with hatters? I think a campaine with hatters should prove interesting.


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Message 2972 of 6726 Reply

Re: Mad As A Hatter Shabooah
(20/M/Fayetteville, Arkansas) 9/14/00 5:25 pm
perhaps a certain hatter in your campaign has the ability to unknowingly make hats with minor magical powers. these things could be anything from an effective +1 to charisma, to chaging the wearer's hair color every time the hat is worn.
all sorts of effects are possible, and the consequences of a noble hearing of the hatter's reputation for fine hats could end with his or her hair chaging colors randomly. the upshot to all of this is that the hats would probably not seem magical without close scrutiny due to the coincidental nature of magic, and who would suspect the hat anyway?
if nothing else, the slightly odd hatter with a slight magical gift that nobody could ever convince him he has would make for a memorable NPC.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2971 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2973 of 6726 Reply

Re: Mad As A Hatter leeok31
(32/M/Tulsa, OK) 9/14/00 5:51 pm
What, precisely, is a 'hatter', and why are they considered mad?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2971 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2974 of 6726 Reply

Re: Mad As A Hatter prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/14/00 6:34 pm
>>What, precisely, is a 'hatter', and why are they considered mad?<<

A "hatter" is one who makes hats.

In the 18th century, mercury salts were used to make felt for fancy hats. The process required copious amounts of the element, a substance then not known to be as dangerous as we now know it to be.

Hat makers who day after day handled mercury-soaked fabric risked mercury poisoning, a condition that affects the nervous systems. Those so exposed would in time develop uncontrollable twitches and trembles, making them appear demented to the casual observer.

The true origin of the phrase "mad as a hatter" is still subject to debate.

http://www.snopes.com/spoons/fracture/hatter.htm

Prolix
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2973 by leeok31

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Message 2975 of 6726 Reply

Re: Killin' Characters mattbcieri
(28/M/Upper Darby PA) 9/14/00 11:08 pm
I am glad i could help, but the lava idea is not mine!!!

As a DM you should be able or at least willing to steal AHEM! borrow! Borrow ideas from anywhere.

This blase of glory was brought to you by J. R. R. Tolkein in the lord of the rings trilogy, when Frodo went to Moordor to throw the 1 ring into the volcano where it was forged.

If you remember, though, Frodo and Samwise were rescude by giant eagles.

Hope it all works out OK.

Tell us how it turns out!

Matt

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2970 by madpoet418

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Message 2976 of 6726 Reply

Re: Mad As A Hatter mattbcieri
(28/M/Upper Darby PA) 9/14/00 11:26 pm
A campaign with Hatters?

Well let's see, the mad Hatter is a bit cliche but will do in a pinch.

A hatter who makes magical hats, sounds intresting...

... but enough to make a campaign out of?

I am thinking of the game Paranoia, where everyoone's position in society is noted by the color of their clothing. Perhapse the king of the land has ordered this to be so.

This could open up motr possibilities, a black market for higher ranking hats. Perhable even a fake hatter, whom the king wants captured.

(Fake meaning not officially working for the king, but as a free merchant) "Sure I will make you a purple hat, you know you are the 3rd person this week to make such a request."

Perhapse hats are only worn by the men, and there would be an elaborate right of passage ritual, or inheritance ritual to pass on the faminy colors.

This would work also if the women wore hats. "She only married him for his colored hat". This might allow you to develop a campaign idea.

If hats are so important to society, then there would be elaborate rules of politenes, like not wearring a hat in church, or tipping your hat to a lady, or removing your hat and making a low bow to someone who out ranks you.

Hat handling might even have it's own rules. "I never go to that hatter, he only wears a yellow hat, and is unfit to touch my green hat."

You get the idea...

Another idea, is that everyone wears several hats, depending on the occasion. This Idea is stolen from a race in StarControl 2 the Utwig. They used masks for all occasions, it is easy to adapt this to be hats.

There is a hat for a funeral, a birth, celebration, depression, formal occasions, party hats, this idea could get out of hand reall fast. You could annoy Pc's by having people laugh at them when they have the wrong hat on.

Hope it helps.

Matt

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2974 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2977 of 6726 Reply

Question about the Longsword dolphin99it
(19/M/Bolzano - Italy) 9/15/00 5:25 am
Hello! Here for you, from Italy, a question about the most loved weapon ever: the great longsword!

Well, one of my players wants to use his longsword (a nonmagical one) with both hands, handling it as a two-handed weapon. But I don't think it's possible for an human: for example the bastard sword is made to make it possible to handle it with two hands. But I think that only dwarven or halflings have the possibility to handle a longsword as an human handles a two-handed sword!

Don't you think? The problem comes from "Skills & Powers", that gives some advantages with the two-handed weapons' specialization.

Thank everyone for his attention! I hope you can help me.

Bye,

-LUCA


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Message 2978 of 6726 Reply

Re: Question about the Longsword shinto_gaijin
(28/M/Sasebo, Japan) 9/15/00 7:08 am
>> "Well, one of my players wants to use his longsword (a nonmagical one) with both hands, handling it as a two-handed weapon. But I don't think it's possible for an human:"

Let him use it two-handed, and maybe give him a slight bonus to damage, but also apply his "non-proficiency" penalty "to hit" and give him an increased chance of a fumble. Wielding a longsword, without the extra long hilt (which would make it a bastard sword) with both hands would have to be done by (at least partially) interlocking the fingers or covering one hand with the other. Either way, his mobility would decrease and his balance would be different (especially if he is proficient with longsword, and not bastard sword).

Try swinging a baseball bat (or other 4' long, skinny item) with one hand covering the other.

Also, while I would rule that a halfling could (probably would have to) weild a longsword the same way a human would weild a two-handed sword, I don't think I would allow this for a dwarf, but in either case, I would not give them any bonuses to damage.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2977 by dolphin99it

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Message 2979 of 6726 Reply

Re: Question about the Longsword Jiriki13
(31/M/Chicago area) 9/15/00 8:04 am
The rules for two-hander style fighting with a normally one-handed weapon is that the user gains a +1 to damage. This is from both the Fighter's Handbook and Combat & Tactics. I forget if there is a weapon speed penalty or not. It is possible for a man-sized creature to get two hands on a long sword as this is the example that they use in those sources, if I'm not mistaken.

Dave

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2977 by dolphin99it

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Message 2980 of 6726 Reply

Re: Mad As A Hatter Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/15/00 8:26 am
Perhaps the local Hatters Guild could be a secret society of psionicists and characters with psionic wild talents. They operate in secret to avoid persecution by the fearful and ignorant. They try to locate all psionics residing in the area and induct them into their group for mutual support and protection (X-men style). They could be good, neutral, or evil as you see fit. They can even make special hats that shield their mind from psionic probes or other methods of psionic detection or ESP. They might even be able to make special hats that can boost or focus their psionic powers.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2971 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2981 of 6726 Reply

Re: Question about the Longsword knightmare6
(23/M/Brooklyn, NY) 9/15/00 10:55 am
You can use a single-handed weapon with "Two-handed" weapon-style. You receive a bonus to damage of +1 to damage. You only get a +3 (-3) bonus to Speed Factor, if you have the skill for two-handed weapons.

I have it listed in the Proficiency Netbook.
http://www.geocities.com/knightmare6/rpgarchives.html

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2977 by dolphin99it

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Message 2982 of 6726 Reply

Re: Question about the Longsword prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/15/00 11:33 am
Third Edition rules say you can use a one-handed weapon two-handed. If you do, you get 1.5 times your strength bonus (if any) applied to damage.

You get no bonus for using a light weapon in two hands.

(3E PHB page 97)

Prolix
For all your 3E needs
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild
The Best Third Edition Club

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2977 by dolphin99it

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Message 2983 of 6726 Reply

Re: Question about the Longsword CZE_026
(33/M/IA) 9/15/00 2:06 pm
...without the extra long hilt (which would make it a bastard sword)...

Technically incorrect. The traditional European longsword is significantly smaller and lighter than the clubbing blade of the scottish Bastard sword (oft referred to as a Hand and a Half sword). Some mediterranean longswords were made with a longer hilt. Not so much for use as a 2h weapon, but for a fencing style that allowed for a switching of sword hands. Some historians have attributed this style to a chinese influence, but the jury is still out on that verdict.

CZE

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2978 by shinto_gaijin

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Message 2984 of 6726 Reply

4 sale lots of goodies mauser_98a
9/17/00 3:11 pm
I have a bunch of goodies for sale, especialy for struggling DM's that need books, maps, modules. Check out my ad in Yahoo classifieds, under Dungeons and dragons (texas-Austin area)I can make you a good deal. Drop me a email, I'll send a complete list, either you can buy items seperate or everything at once. Keep the game alive. My email is mauser_98a@yahoo.com or tillela@excite.com

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2983 by CZE_026

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Message 2985 of 6726 Reply

Re: 4 sale lots of goodies ODYSSEUS_THE_TRAVELER
(31/M/HAVE SLEEPING BAG WILL HA) 9/17/00 7:59 pm
coool beans cept for one thing,,,your name isnt listed in yahoo auctions,,,,

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2984 by mauser_98a

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Message 2986 of 6726 Reply

Re: 4 sale lots of goodies mauser_98a
9/17/00 11:49 pm
Check the classifieds ,not yahoo auctions!Look under General merchandise-Select texas-Toys and games-input dungeons and dragons hit search.only one add will come up. Good hunting Odysseus
*Mauser*

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2985 by ODYSSEUS_THE_TRAVELER

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Message 2987 of 6726 Reply

Third Edition Prestige Classes prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/18/00 12:15 am
What do you DM's think of the Prestige Classes in terms of game balance? These are my thoughts.

Arcane Archer - Balanced, very good if you want an archer character
Assassin - Balanced
Blackguard - Broken, way too powerful
Dwaven Defender - Balanced, good option for the Dwarf Fighter
Loremaster - Broken, superpowerful for Wizards, balanced for Clerics, weakly balanced for Sorcerers, terrible for Bards
Shadowdancer - Broken (but only cause it sucks so bad), the first 2 levels of Shadowdancer are the best, the later levels suck.

If you want my in depth analysis of these classes, check out the 3E site:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild

Prolix


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Message 2988 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition Prestige Classes Calitrojan
9/18/00 11:51 am
I think Prestige Classes are fine, as they are basically multiclassing, not kits. so a charachter taking on a Prestige Class will gain additional benifits but will develop more slowly in their standard and their prestige class than a regular charachter would. Also if they are multiclass then their prestige class will suffer from the XP penalty of being so far off of their standard level... as many of the classes you must be 6-8th level to achieve them...

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2987 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2989 of 6726 Reply

A fellow DM hac_man002
(25/M/CA) 9/18/00 12:03 pm
Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, this is not an advertisement. I started playing D&D when I joined the Navy back in 1993. Since then I have graduated to DM'ing and have several groups running in my world. The reason Im writing this is to support the 1st DM I played with. He has just published his first book based on his world. It is available on Amazon.com and it is called "The Cleansing War". It is an excellent story and I recommend it to you all.

I don't get any royalties from how many I sell or anything like that, I just thought I'd share this with others who would be interested.

Regards,
HAC


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Message 2990 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition Prestige Classes prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/18/00 12:05 pm
All Prestige classes are also "preferred classes". The level in all preferred classes is ignored when you determine XP penalties for uneven multiclassed characters.

PL.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2988 by Calitrojan

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Message 2991 of 6726 Reply

Re: Mad As A Hatter madpoet418
(27/M/wanderer (now in OR)) 9/18/00 3:37 pm
The first few adventures in this hatter campaign would be set in a mid-sized city.

The first adventure begins with an NPC (close personal friend of the PCs) showing off his/her new hat to the characters. As the adventure progresses, the PCs notice that the NPC has begun to act strangely and is possibly a theif or spy. The character is caught going through their stuff, etc. This happens in the background of what seems like an innocent city adventure.

Subsequent adventures would thicken the background plot as rumors tell of 1) certain influencial lords and ladies who have become more sinister and tyrannical and 2) those same nobles sporting beautiful new hats that are all the rage. PCs start to notice suspicious glares from hat wearing guardsmen and rogues. They get the idea that something is going on and go to confront the hat peddler but are forced to flee when attacked by a slobbering hoarde of zombie-like tranced-out peasants and soldiers in handsome caps. When the PCs manage to wrestle the hat off of someone that person "dies" and a very nasty level-sucking, poisonous, ethereal creature rises from the corpse. Hat wearers can be killed normally without releasing the spirit.

They might go to a local guild boss or temple keeper for help but then flee when the trusted contact appears in an elaborate hat and orders their execution. They have to fight their way out, narrowly escaping with their lives. The PCs may decide to flee from the city which is ideal.

In the nearby wilderness, the PCs meet a small warband containing a paladin, a ranger, and a loremaster. The loremaster has been studying the prophecies of the coming of a demon hatter who will transform the world into a hellish nightmare unless destroyed by a band of heroes. The ranger is the loremaster's sworn protector and also serves as a guide during the search for the hatter. The paladin is a loner who swore vengence against the hatter when his temple was wiped out by barbarians in fancy new viking helmets.

The middle leg of the campaign would entail the PCs traveling with the war band as they search for the hatter's lair (perhaps paid as healers, bodyguards, guides, etc.). It seems that a new headwear fad has been causing havoc in other towns as well. Hints are dropped that the PCs, not the warband, are the heroes meant to destroy the demon hatter. Just about the time the players are figuring this out, the loremaster, paladin, and their entire group of thugs are wiped out by several golems controlled by a high level wizard with fancy, embroidered headgear. Left alive are the PCs and the paladin who urges them to help him destroy the hatter.

The final leg of the campaign involves traveling to and entering the dark hat factory which is set in a black wizard's tower deep in the wilderness. Wizards and sorcerers labor to create the magical hats which give their master control over the wearers. They are protected by a hat wearing army of goons and several powerful guardian creatures.
To stop the madness, the PCs must confront and defeat the demon hatter. The magic fades after the hatter dies and life returns to normal across the kingdoms (except that lots of folks have really nice hats).

-Scott

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2971 by messiah_of_metal

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Message 2992 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition Prestige Classes tuffnoogies
(30/M/Kansas City) 9/18/00 3:56 pm
>>Also if they are multiclass then their prestige class will suffer from the XP penalty of being so far off of their standard level... as many of the classes you must be 6-8th level to achieve them... <<

Prestige classes are all considered preferred classes for xp penalties.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2988 by Calitrojan

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Message 2993 of 6726 Reply

Re: Third Edition Prestige Classes orgruff
(32/M/Adelaide, Australia) 9/18/00 7:16 pm
Prolix you said that in your opinion:
Blackguard - Broken, way too powerful
OK fine I think thats great news as a DM cause I can make them NPC's and make them part of an evil organisation and they will be a challenge for the PC's, just like assasins were in first Ed.

Thanks for the Info and yes I have been following your indepth assesment at the other club.

Orgruff

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2987 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2994 of 6726 Reply

Join a pathetic club for a purpose theselis
(M/Ringwood, IL) 9/18/00 9:47 pm
Back in July I started a Forgotten Realms club. A few weeks later, a moronic friend (and player) decides to totally rip me off and start an online playing club. Normally I would be ok with this except for a few major facts.

One, he has absolutely NO experience as a DM. He has only been playing less than a year and already he thinks he knows all he needs to become a DM.

Two, his club is in the Forgotten Reamls subdirectory. The problem with this is that he knows NOTHING about FR other than a small amount about Icewind Dale (from the computer game) and a small amount about the Dalelands (from my first FR campaign which only began recently.)

Third, he is being totally boastful about how his club is better than mine (which I suppose is true since he has more members). Considering how inexperienced he is, and the previous two facts, I believe that this is completely out of line.

What I am asking from you, is that you join my small and pathetic club. I just need more members to shut him up, you don't even need to be active (though it would be nice). I created the club as a small place to trade FR stories, and recently to play online. I beg of you to join "Forgotten Realms Enthusiasts".


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Message 2995 of 6726 Reply

Re: Join a pathetic club for a purpose hac_man002
(25/M/CA) 9/19/00 12:50 am
The only real way to acheive a victory over your player is to let him fall on his face. If he truly is as inexperienced as you say, the people who have joined his club will realize this shortly.

The other option besides having people join your club for no reason is to get feedback from your current members. If your club is top notch, this shouldn't be a problem

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2994 by theselis

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Message 2996 of 6726 Reply

Re: Join a pathetic club for a purpose Umbratikus
(35/M/Central Ohio) 9/19/00 8:20 am
Ach! Please refrain from endeavors to lure the noble into your petty squabbles!

Seriously though, who cares? So what if his club has more members than you? If you have a good club, and enjoy it, then why care what he does? If he is doing it just to spite you then he doesn't sound like much of a friend. What you should do is respond to his boasts with indifferece, or better yet, be supportive. Show him that you are a better friend to him than he is being to you. Perhaps if you work out your differences, you can merge your clubs into one and be co-founders of one BIG Forgotten Realms club.

SIDE NOTE: Are you his DM? [evil grin]

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2994 by theselis

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Message 2997 of 6726 Reply

Re: Join a pathetic club - FOUNDER TIPS prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/19/00 12:45 pm
TIPS FOR A SUCCESSFUL CLUB

The founder is responsible for the success or failure of his club. Yahoo clubs need members. The more members the better. People will only join clubs if they are interesting. Clubs with few members aren't that interesting. Also most people tend to lurk. They read messages but the don't post themselves.

Step 1) Make Your Club Interesting.
In the beginning, the Founder should be posting interesting things. You should post a new interesting thing EVERY day. Your post should be something that makes people want to reply or makes them want to come back to see what else you have to say.

Step 2) Get Members
ADVERTISE, ADVERTISE, ADVERTISE. You need to get people to check your club out. If it is worthy, they will join. You can post a few straight advertisements in other clubs of similar interest. Do not do this too often or it will be spam. I'd suggest not more than once a month in other clubs.
BUT, there are other ways to advertise. Every post you make in other clubs should have a link to your club. Make should its a link. No one is going to search for
"Forgotten Realms Enthusiasts"
My pet club is
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild
More people will click a link than try to find your club though Yahoo club search feature.
Also if you are responding to a post and it relates to some message on your own club, direct people to your club along with the message number. If you get people there and they are interested, they will join.
My club is a month old and has about 60 members. I started a 3E club because the biggest 3E club seemed dead. I started most of the threads in the beginning. Even now I post a lot, especially if there's been no discussion for a day or so. But the club now has enough membership that I think it will continue to grow even if I ignore it. Check out the first few messages in my club and see how they progressed.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild
There I just advertised my club and provided the link twice in this message.

Step 3) Keep Your Club Active
The Founder should make sure there is always an interesting topic or thread being discussed. If there isn't, start one. Also, make sure threads started by other people are addressed. You don't have to reply to everything. But if no one else does, you should reply. Always answer peoples questions if you can. Or help them as much as you can. Once you get an active club, you can try things like a scheduled chat, but you would need a lot of members because most won't or can't show up at the scheduled time.

Hope this helps,
Prolix (founder of the BEST 3E club)
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thirdeditiondndplayersguild

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2994 by theselis

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Message 2998 of 6726 Reply

Re: Join a pathetic club - FOUNDER TIPS Shabooah
(20/M/Fayetteville, Arkansas) 9/19/00 3:26 pm
yeah, prolix, but you forgot to mention how annoying that is

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2997 by prolixlacuna

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Message 2999 of 6726 Reply

Re: Join a pathetic club - FOUNDER TIPS prolixlacuna
(34/M/NY) 9/19/00 3:38 pm
Well, you joined my club, didn't you?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2998 by Shabooah

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Message 3000 of 6726 Reply

Re: Join a pathetic club - FOUNDER TIPS SCA_Bard
(23/F/Barony of Storvick) 9/19/00 7:02 pm
I'd have to disagree with "the more members, the better." Maybe for a forum like our Guild (where a variety of opinions is a Good Thing (tm)) that's true, but for an RPG I'd disagree.

I GM a *tiny* little game. 3 players, just added a fourth, and we all love it. I can devote plenty of posts to individualized encounters and we're all of a like mind on the role-play <---> hack scale of things. It runs more like a traditional tabletop RP rather than some of the more freeform stuff here in the Clubs, but we all know that format and are comfortable with it. So it works out well.

It's not that a big game is necessarily bad. I just don't think that a small game is necessarily bad either.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 2999 by prolixlacuna