The Dungeon Masters Guild
Ask the DM's Guild

This Months 4 Questions:

Question #1:  From:
"The Dungeon Master"

Email :Jancoran@hotmail.com

Description: My wife, an Illusionist has come up with a way to juke the rules and I don't like it. Tell me what you think? She has decided she can use the Veil spell to make them all look like flies. For this she has gained numerous
"unfair" advantages.

1. Acts effectively as an invisibility spell until you're
close enough to see the flies, which has to be point blank
almost.
2. Gives her a disgusting size modifier (I do not give
her the modifier, but she insists she should get it)
3. If there are numerous enemies and the flies only
attack one creature, "interacting with it", then only IT
gets the save while the other comrades stand around
not realizing why their buddy is growing bloody slashes
all over himself. ASSUMING he survives the
round, and assuming he makes his will save (DC 24 for
crying out loud) he starts to scream "It's the flies!
It's the flies!". Let me ask you this: would your mind
click into focus if someone said Flies were killing your
buddy?

Hardly believable right? And so the enemies usually
lose two or even three before they realize where the
threat is coming from and even then, those too
far away to see the flies see their buddies hacking
at thin air and can't SEE what they are hacking at in
order to disbelief it! So ranged attackers have
basically no chance to notice the attacking flies nor
act on it other than to close in and see what all the
ruckus is about.

Another heinous usage of powers: Improved invisibility
and fly on a Druid/Shifter who has taken troll form. Let
me just say this about it: They may have miscalculated
when allowing Wild Shaping to specifically grant
extraordinary abilities (unlike Polymorph and
Metamorphosis which does not!) He has reach, invisibility
bonuses to hit, higher ground, and worst of all, short of
fire and acid, this Troll aint going down for long.
He is a relentless killer and you don't know WHATS hitting you which means unless you're just lucky enough to choose a fire or acid spell, you will lose! I faced off against the players, with four clerics and the Fighter/Blackguard (total level 16) and they wiped the lot of them out. 12th level party did that. With ease. Had it not been for the wizard slamming the Blackguard with the Violet ray of a prismatic spray spell (and him missing his save), they would have all died that day. Their misstep has caused them to have to chase him to another Plane of existence. But the point is the same. That Druid/Shifter combo is awesome when there's a full mage in the party.

More Juking:

An archer with four different Prestige Classes. FOUR. That seems ridiculous to me. How do you justify that? And what sucks is, most of those have the same prerequisite Feats, so its incredibly easy to do for him. Since many Archer Prestige classes are a little front loaded, the problem is compounded.

Yet....the rules say... Do you all have a problem with this? I
didn't theoretically, but in practice its really attacking my
sense of realism.

General Thoughts?

Question #2:  From:
"Travis"

Email : JynxterLynx21@Hotmail.com

Description: I have just a question. I can't seem to find it anywhere. The answer, that is. I need to know how to physically, the best way, without spending a lot of money, to make a tangible spellbook. You know, a sort of prop device for those interested in becoming mages. It helps let a mage know what he's learned, what he's torn out of the book, what he wants to write down, new and old, etc.

Just a question. And for your info, if it helps narrow your explanation, I already have parchment colored paper, little photo albums to convert into spellbooks, and the necessary content I want to put in them, just no way of construction that would look good and work well enough to be used. Thanks for your time and let me know as soon as you come up with an idea. I'd be glad to share any ideas I have in exchange for the answer to this question. Thanks again and keep up the killer site!


Answers to Q #2



Question #3:  From:
"Bob"

Lirid@aol.com

Description: What exactly is challenge rating, and does it have anything to do with a creature's XP value? (And if not, where are the XP values for creatures in the Monster Manual?)

Answers to Q #3

 

 


Question #4:  From:
"Jeff"

Dragonmasters@comcast.net

Description: My problem is that I can come up with the most challenging things as far as combinations of monsters and the end of a saga but can not figure out how to back track it so that my group can play at least every other week in the lower levels of their campaign.

They say don't sweat the small stuff well I can't think of anything to be small stuff. I do however think that I may have come up with a good way to do this however I am in an experimental stage of this and that is using a fishbone so far it has been able to give play options to my group and keep it their game.

Should I continue to use this method or do you suggest another for figuring out the in between stuff of the end and beginning.

Answers to Q #4

 


Here Are the Responses :

Answers to Q #1

Harlequin 1998 :
First of all, this is what you get for marrying an illusionist! 1.) Veil is a sixth level spell and Improved Invisibility is a 4th level spell. Since it is of higher level I don't see an issue with it mimicking a lower level spell. 2.) I agree that she should not get the size modifier. She has not changed size, so it's not harder to hit her. If anything, it should be easier to hit her, since anyone trying to make contact with the fly will almost always hit her in the process. From the point of view of the attacker, however, it will seem like he is hitting the fly more often then he would expect. 3.) Every time a creature interacts with an illusion, it has a chance to disbelieve. As the DM, you can and should use circumstance bonuses as necessary. No bonus for the first round the creature is attacked. +1 for each round of attack after that. Also, I would rule that once a creature makes a save, he can see all of the recipients of the spell as they truly are, not just his attacker. Finally, once the attacked creature has successfully disbelieved, he can attempt to warn his comrades, entitling them to saves (perhaps with a penalty). As far as the ranged attacks go, they have the same chance to disbelieve if they are in earshot, but otherwise they wouldn't know what was going on. Another heinous use of powers: This could be classified as rampant munchkinism or clever tactics. If you're not happy with the way a rule works (i.e. Wild Shaping) feel free to change it. But be prepared to justify the change. Don't just change it because the players outwitted you.
It seems that this party needs more challenging challenges. Also, don't forget to modify the EL of an encounter for circumstances. In the example you gave, the enemies were obviously unprepared for the party. Therefore, the EL should have been lowered accordingly (and considering how easy you say they took out the bad guys, I'd guess it'd be an EL of maybe 8 or 9 - they wouldn't get very much experience for it.) Remember that a party should use up about 20% of it's resources for an encounter with an EL equal to the average party level. More juking: There seems to be a general misunderstanding as to what prestige classes are used for. Prestige classes are supposed to be campaign specific, rare, and difficult to achieve. Just because a character has the prerequisites for a prestige class doesn't mean that he can take levels in it. It has to fit with the story and the campaign. And why are there four archer prestige classes in your campaign? That seems a little excessive. You should limit the number of prestige classes and you may want to prohibit characters from taking multiple prestige classes. A prestige class should represent a certain amount of dedication and definitely should come about as a role-playing effect (as opposed to a roll-playing effect).


Xenie:


> 1. Acts effectively as an invisibility spell until you're close
> enough to see the flies, which has to be point blank almost.

Yes well that's what illusions are for. If she disguised herself as a tree in a forest
the invisibility effect would be the same. Just treat it like a normal save versus
illusion to see flies instead of the party.

> 2. Gives her a disgusting size modifier (I do not give her the
> modifier, but she insists she should get it)

Illusions do no grant any bonuses other than the miss chance. It says that specifically
in the spell IIRC. What you make the illusion of doesn't matter one bit.

> 3. If there are numerous enemies and the flies only attack one > creature, "interacting
with it", then only IT gets the save while > the other comrades stand around not realizing why their buddy is growing bloody slashes all over himself

I would say that the buddies guess what's going on with a modest intelligence roll, but
unless they make the save versus the illusion they still won't be able to see that party so
they'll get the 50% miss chance from being completely hidden. BTW I work by groups, so if you attack one person in a group you are interacting with the group so they all get saves.

I would put the players on the receiving end of this combo and see who they want the rules to work. Have someone disguised as a beetle come up and attack on of the party members (the mage preferably). Then tell the rest of the group they can't make their saves until the creature attacks them. I bet that they will want the rule changed then.

> Another heinous usage of powers: Improved invisibility and fly on a Druid/Shifter who has taken troll form. Let me just say this about it: They may have miscalculated when
allowing Wild Shaping to specifically grant extraordinary abilities (unlike Polymorph and
Metamorphosis which does not.

Well yes if you get the right people with the right combos it can be deadly. That's good
teamwork and good thinking on their part. Put monsters in small spaces so this tactic won't work, or again, use the same tactic on the party.

> An archer with four different Prestige Classes. FOUR. That seems > ridiculous to me. How do you justify that?

Well that's the way archers work, which I've heard other people complain about as well. This is the fault of the DM who didn't say "no you can't have that". Other than that there's nothing to be done about it.

                     

Dennis Jensen:

Okay I'll back the you don't get a size modifier for an illusion.

And yes if the players want to use Veil as an Improved Invisibility spell (whether they look
like flies or are simply invisible makes little difference) let them. However, use the
Invisibility
modifiers but reduce the penalty by 1 or 5% since they are at least
partially visible as flies.

Oh and I'm sorry if I couldn't see what was hurting my friend in a fantasy world the first thing I'd think was a they were being attacked by invisible opponents. I mean in a fantasy world invisibility may be uncommon but it is not unheard of.

As to believing or disbelieving Illusions kind of depends on how you run Illusions.
Personally I took the Phantasm aspect and put into the Enchantment category since both
are defined as mind
affecting magic and my Illusions are just that illusions.

However, since illusions can not hurt you directly they can not be disbelieved. They simply create a false sensory element that doesn't generally adhere to the normal physical laws. For instance, a Light spell casts no shadows and is not brighter at its source than outer radius furthermore it does not extend beyond its range. Thus its an illusory light that even if you disbelieve it, it is still there. Okay enough about my opinion on illusions and if your using the disbelieving aspect then I'd go with
Harlequin's thoughts on that.

As for the Wild Shape

saw that one coming...
and already redefined it... you can take only "normal" animal shapes. To me anything beyond that distorts the intent of the ability making it something unkind to nature people. I am sorry a Troll is a monster and you can not get it by doing a Summon Nature's Ally and I would even be careful with allowing all Nature Ally like creatures
as well.

>> An archer with four different Prestige Classes. >> FOUR. That seems ridiculous to me.

No seeming to it... it is ridiculous but in all fairness it is allowable via the rules. Just remember prestige classes, regardless of the base class or the prestige class, are an extremely bad idea as they are put forth. They promote munkinism even more than the multi-classing crap that they have. I mean you get so much for taking a "new" class (whether prestige or normal) that its just simply good mechanics to do so and to heck with good roleplaying and character concepts. I saw this at a glance when I looked at
3E and it was one of the first things I changed.

Just remember that in every group you are going to get players who want to beat the rules rather than create good character concepts. Its up to you as a GM to reign this in unless of course you like running "Monty Hall" adventures with Munchkin characters.

Array 50:

This is why I love being the Dm. Here is a a good solution to the problem.

Dispel magic is a nice low level spell. Cast it on a sword or a helmet for the Royal guards. Any
Mage of real power will see the problems this can solve. And dragons always know this spell.

Of course, flies love the smell of certain sweets, so if a set of flies are ignoring it, it should be noticed.

Mind you, this is just off the top of my head, I have had Players beg me to go back to how I was playing BEFORE they had there"great" idea. Solves some of my player
control issuies when they fear you.

Skell DMCobb #37:

An archer with four different Prestige Classes.
> >> FOUR. That seems ridiculous to me.
> >> No seeming to it... it is ridiculous but in all
fairness it is allowable via the rules. Just remember
prestige classes, regardless of the base class or the
prestige class, are an extremely bad idea as they are
put forth. They promote munkinism even more than the
multi-classing crap that they have. I mean you get so
much for taking a "new" class (whether prestige or
normal) that its just simply good mechanics to do so
and to heck with good roleplaying and character
concepts. I saw this at a glance when I looked at 3E
and it was one of the first things I changed.
Just remember that in every group you are going to get
players who want to beat the rules rather than create
good character concepts. Its up to you as a GM to
reign this in unless of course you like running Monty
Hall adventures with Munchkin characters.

This is one of the reasons I won't switch to 3E. I don't want to waste
energy "reigning in" munchkins. And I may have the biggest, baddest,
fattest, worst munchkin of them all over here!


Xenzie:

> Okay as for a mid-campaign issue perhaps you might
> restrict the number of classes and prestige classes to
> a characters Intelligence modifier this way in order
> to have 4 prestige classes the character would have to
> have an 18 Intelligence. The reason being is he'd
> have to remember everything in order to get the
> bonuses and specializing or multi-classing requires a
> lot of memory use.

I like this idea a lot, but depending on the group of players it
might be something that you need to put in place before the game
starts. "But if I had known that I wouldn't have taken this first
PrC... or the third *whine*."

I would simply sit everyone down and say something along the lines
of, "Ok I know I said that you could take any PrC from this list but
I wasn't expecting so much interest in them. I think that there should
be some sort of limiting factor on PrCs. "
Then let the players and you agree on something you can all live
with. Then you can come up with something more fleshed out or strict
for the next campaign without system shocking them with drastic
changes.


Thrandorian:

I play 1st Edition............................................Thank God For Small Favors!!

Answers to Q #2

Array 50: 
                  
The cheapest and most effective way to deal with this kind of problem is one I use all 
the time. Forget what you have, what would they have had back then? Holes cut into
common materials. Chunks of bark can make a convincing cover and backing for it. But
make sure you take care to preserve it. Yarn is a cheap material that was common in the
olden days for bindings. The pages can be anything from common paper to cardboard.
While neither is really an accurate example of what they had, it looks good. If you don't want to go through that much trouble, then cut the covers off an old binder.
The cardboard inside is sturdy and takes colors well. A bit of glue and some natural
materials like leaves and twigs make it look more old fashioned.

Jeff (DM of Clan Huack):

After you print your pages, make some tea. Pour the tea into a container large enough for the
paper, like a lasagna baking glass thingy, then soak the paper in the tea, I don't remember how long it takes for the tea to imbed, an hour should do, test it out and see how long works best for you. The end result will leave you with a paper that has an ancient feel and look about it, not to mention the aroma of tea. We used this idea in jr. high to make civil war money for a class project.

WNDRWLF:

Use construction paper, fold or cut in half so it is the size of a paper back book. Punch three holes down one side and use twine or yarn ( twine would make it look more authentic) To bind the pages together. To stiffen it up a bit you can use cardboard as covers front and back.

SCA Bard:

You could try some bookbinding as described on this page: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/
book/ There are certainly steps you could skip to make things easier - I doubt you care if all of the edges of the pages line up perfectly, for instance. Heck, it would probably look cooler if they didn't. You can cover the cardboard covers (or your photo albums if you'd rather just use a 3-hole punch) with whatever you think looks cool - some scraps of upholstery fabric (try the remnants section of a fabric store), some light leather or suede, or even aluminum foil for a "bound in silver" look.

I'd guess that rubber cement would be good at attaching it. I'd also *highly* recommend
trying a small sample project before using all your parchment paper. I've never had a craft project turn out right the first time.

 

Answers to Q #3

Starlight Storyteller:

A challenge rating (CR) is a measure of how tough the creature is to defeat. (Theoretically, it is supposed to tell you what level a party of 4 characters should need to be to defeat one of those creatures. A party of lower-level characters will have a tougher time or be unsuccessful. A party of 4 higher-level characters should find it not as challenging.) You do use CR when determining how much XP you give out for a creature.

The amount of XP a creature of a certain CR is worth varies depending on the average party level. (Thus, a party of 10th-level characters killing a goblin will receive nothing, while a party of 1st-level adventurers will receive a substantial amount because it was actually a challenge for them.) In order to figure out how much XP to give for a creature, you will need a DMG. The Monster Manual alone does not have anything that can be used to hand out XP in 3rd ed.

Once you have Monster Manual and DMG in front of you, you have to take several steps:

1. Find out what your average party level is. If everyone is the same level, this is easy. Four 4th-level characters have a "party level" of 4. If everyone has different levels, take the average. (That is, add all their levels together and divide by the number of characters that went into the calculation.)

2. Find your party's level on the Experience Points Awards chart. (This is on P. 166 of the DMG.) Party level is listed down the left side of this chart.

3. Find the CR of the creature your party just defeated. Monster CRs are listed across the top of the chart. 4. Find the point where the row of your party's level intersects the column for the CR of the creature.

The intersection is the number of XP you should give. This XP should be split among the party...that's not the amount you give to each individual. Divide it equally among them. (If the intersection of that row and column has a "*", the party does not get any XP for it because either the creature was so far beneath them that it did not present a challenge or it was so much more powerful that the fact that they defeated it was either pure luck or a mistake on the DM's part.) (If you have more than one creature in an encounter, find out how much one of the creatures would be worth, then multiply it by the number of creatures before dividing it out to the players.)

Another note on CRS: Sometimes, obviously, you want your party to encounter more than one creature. You won't always find "a goblin", for instance. You might find a war band of four goblins. That would present a bigger challenge than a lone goblin. To find out how challenging this encounter would be or to discover how many of a certain creature you can use to make an encounter on par with your party's capabilities, refer to the Encounter Numbers chart (page 100 of the DMG).

The top row represents the number of monsters in the encounter. Find the number of creatures, then move down that column until you find the CR of the monsters. Then trace that row to the left, to get the "Encounter Level". For instance, if you have 3 creatures that have a CR of 7, you would find "Three" at the top, move down to "7" under that column, and look to the left to find out that the Encounter level is "10". So it would be an appropriate challenge for a 10th-level party. (You can, if you prefer this method, give out XP for the above encounter...the 3 monsters with CR 7 each...as one CR 10 monster instead of 3 CR 7 monsters. The XP will be somewhat different, but it all comes out in the wash.

As long as you are consistent, if that is easier for you, then use it. Giving XP out based on the total value of the creatures instead of one creature's value multiplied is also the only way you can give out XP for one hundred goblins, for instance, because at the point where the PCs could kill 100 of them, one is no longer a challenge, they would get no XP for it, and 100 times zero is still zero. Something to consider when deciding to give out XP based on individual monsters or the value of the entire encounter.)


Brian Randsom:

Challenge rating is exactly what it sounds like, it is a measure of how challenging a creature is supposed to be. It helps determine the amount of XP a group gets. To do so, see your DMG, p 166. Compare your party's level with the CR of the creature on the chart, and presto, xp for the encounter. (I made it a little simple, but most of the rules are right there between 165 and 169.


Dennis Jensen:

This question is actually answered in depth in the Dungeon Masters Guide. Pages 100 to 103 and Chapter 7 (starting on page 165) cover just about the whole gambit of what they are about. However, quoting this material would be a copyright infringement so I suggest reading these first and then if you have a specific question about CRs we would be more than happy to address them.

 

SCA Bard:

I'm not a 3rd ed player, so take this with a grain of salt. But I think a challenge rating is supposed to measure how tough an encounter is. For single monsters, the XP should increase with CR - a tougher monster is more dangerous but also worth more reward.

But you can also have a high CR by using many weaker monsters - it is more dangerous to be attacked by a swarm of kobolds than one kobold. But the XP for each individual kobold is stil the same.


 

Answers to Q #4

 

Array 50:

Toning it down for early levels can be a hard thing to do. Its much 
easier to create a grand villain that would kill all in his or her path 
and use it right away than try to tone him down for the early playing. 
But here are a few tricks I use.

First of all; your final villain, despite what you may see in many 
movies and video games; doesn't have to be even aware of the players for 
quite a while. After all, he has underlings that take care of many of 
his minor projects, and how many of them would be willing to admire to 
failure when odds are they will be killed for it? The players may 
successful destroy several plains before the final villain even knows 
they are there.

Also, in history, people have often been under estimated. Why send in 
the best fighter, if a few kobolds will do the trick? The kobolds 
failed? must be better than I thought, send in the Ogres. What, the 
ogres failed? Ok, The trolls have never failed me before (you can see 
how fair that might go)

Also, remember that every creature don't have to fight at there best 
all the time. The kobolds can be an easy kill or lethal sob's 
depending on how well they fight and how well prepared they are. A 
dragon can be a creature of unending terror, or if caught during a bad 
moment (everyone has to use the bathroom at times...) could lose allot 
before they can recover.

Finally, remember that information is the best control over the 
players you have. The more you give them, the better prepared, and 
therefor the easier the win will be. 

I recall a time that I wanted to give the players a real scare, but 
let them win. So I let them know that there was about to be an attack 
by wearwolfes. Knowing it almost 2 game hours in advance meant they had 
time to prep silver weapons and find a way to treat the wounds to 
prevent infection. The battle was still hard, but they won. Had I only 
let them know that somebody was going to attack, it would have gone 
very differently. So control the information, if they need an advantage, 
give them more than the villain has. 


WNDRWLF::

I think this is a very inventive way of keeping track of an ongoing story line. IF
it is working for you and your players are happy with the result then why fix what
ain't broke. My campaigns are heavy on the intrigue and I take many notes on what
everybody does did and is doing. I think the fish bone idea would work good I might
start using that thanks.


SCA Bard:

What I usually do is ask, "Why are the PCs involved in the climax of this campaign?" If the climactic battle you envision involves a lich and his vampire minion, why do the PCs want to kill these guys? How did they learn about their evil schemes and what goaded them to foil them? Lich and vampire says undead. How might an undead menace enter the lives of some low-level adventurers? Zombies! Graves on the edge of town are being opened and the corpses walk the night! The characters kill the zombies and have to track down the necromancer responsible. We want the necromancer to lead to the lich's grander scheme (a world of undead!) but not just yet.

You could take this one step up the "undead ladder" - to a cabal of necromancers, say - or change ladders. Maybe the lich's minions are subverting the local nobility, promising them more power in the new "undead regime." If the PCs go to the authorities with their findings, they're thrown in jail, have to escape, and might go trying to find out why. If the jail guards are low enough level, this is a fine diversion for low-powered PCs. Now the players can pursue the mystic trail of clues or the chain of corrupted power. Or both! The longer they're at it, the more powerful the people involved. The monsters get tougher, since the more powerful people get the more powerful bodyguards. Oh and by the way, all the surrounding towns and villages are *still* having their graveyards plundered and there is a growing undead army in the Northern Plains.

The low-level hook is still in operation! Even if the PCs took care of one lowly necromancer, the lich undoubtedly has dozens working for him! In this case, you can bring the two "adventure paths" together near the midpoint or even the climax if you like, perhaps making the vampire minion an ArchDuke or something. Shortly after first meeting the minion (possibly as a result), the PCs should have the idea that they're facing down a lich. Unless they're uber-powerful characters, this ought to frighten them. If you *still* need to stall, I love to send them on a quest for a magic item that will help them defeat their enemy.

It can be anywhere from atop the highest mountain to deep under the earth, or even under the sea! It's an excuse to run a totally different sort of adventure if you want to, with different monsters and hazards. For this example, I'd go with either the Staff of Mighty Damage, the Amulet of Invulnerability to Lich Special Effects, or the Ring That Will Make the Lich a Nice Guy, If Only You Can Get It On His Finger. The first two are more traditional, but it's nice to consider a "twist" ending. They go, they come back, they are hopefully now ready to kick lich butt. They still have to discover the lich's secret lair, bust past all the guards, spells, and traps, and then defeat the lich and vampire - and we're at the climax we wanted in the first place.

So without all the example-babble: - Start with a low-level menace that you can plausibly tie back to the Big Bad Guy. - You can branch the campaign into multiple avenues of investigation to increase adventure possibilities. - Clues to the identity and whereabouts of the Big Bad Guy traditionally lead up a hierarchy of evil that gets tougher and tougher as the PCs go along. - A quest for a special, powerful item necessary for the climax makes for a nice change of pace while still being tied to the overall campaign. - The PCs finally get to the top of the hierarchy to confront the Big Bad Guy.

Thrandorian:

Adventures which span game and/or real world time, require a different approach entirely than do those which are expected to last only a few months or a single campaign. You may employ the use of premade modules, then tie them together to form your campaign world. Or maybe it's all your design. or maybe a combination of the two.

In any case, you need to keep your facts straight and avoid being caught by the players or circumstances with a conflict or inconsistency.

In order to avoid this and in order to form a more cohesive storyline and sense of credibility/consistency to your players, you need to keep records in such a way that you can "Rerun" your campaign again with another group of players. It sounds like you have played from start to finish in multiple campaigns and just need to remember what you did before.

If that is your intent I suggest keeping notes written right on the pages of any module you use, arrange any documentation you may have created (encounter charts,monster stats, room descriptions etc.) and arrange these by adventure. I use individual folders for each campaign & usually file these by the name of the campaign. ("First assault on Tar-Zarum" for instance).

Then I also keep sheets for every town with just the names and major motivations of a few NPC's. As many as I have developed or have been created as a by product of the previous runs-through and role playing actions of the PC's.

My other thought is to "reverse engineer" your campaigns to a certain extent. Have at least an approximate idea about how things will end, or at least what conditions will exist. Then work backwards with an outline of small campaigns which will lead to the conclusion. Making even a few notes to help you with decisions you may need to make along the way is helpful. Things will likely change along the way and that is fine. This just gives you a tool to lean on as you try to make your early levels fun, challenging and point towards some goal in your game world.